lifeblood: listlogs: 1998-12e


=========================================================================
date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 00:19:52 -0500
reply-to:     michael reynolds <asl@umcs.maine.edu>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         michael reynolds <asl@umcs.maine.edu>
subject:      re: avalon nigc
x-to:         indigobabs@aol.com
in-reply-to:  <9c34853c.368809c5@aol.com> from "barbara todd" at dec 28,
              98 05:44:21 pm
content-type: text

well, if michelle records it, i am sure we'll see a plethora of request for
copies on video, scripts, ect...

anyone got last nights gigs on tape?
mike r.

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date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 02:55:55 est
reply-to:     chance0631@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         chance0631@aol.com
subject:      re: absolutely nigc whatsoever
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i think this list has proven that sexual orientation is unique to everyone,
that it is a personal experience for all with no rights, wrongs or should
be's.
lynn

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date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 03:42:52 est
reply-to:     lythande99@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         "timothy j. baldwin" <lythande99@aol.com>
subject:      re: absolutely nigc whatsoever...a personal view
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hello friends....

another stimulating nigc discussion.....but yet very relevant to the creative
force that fuels the music we all love.....

i think part of the problem is society's need to categorize and label
everything.....with boxes and filing cabinets.....a place for everything and
everything in it's place.....

the diversity in the responses already posted on this topic show that an
individual's sexual orientation can be a product of many factors.....i
personally have never been comfortable defining myself merely in sexual
terms.....

i used to think that it was "easier" for a woman to be a lesbian than it would
be for a man to be gay.....but it seems that the right wing backlash knows no
favorites.....

i do feel the need to profess my admiration for the strides that gay women
have made in my lifetime in shattering the old stereotypes and creating a new
image....

peace and love,
tim

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date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 04:53:40 -0500
reply-to:     ron mcbay <usul@mindspring.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         ron mcbay <usul@mindspring.com>
subject:      re: nigc sexuality issues
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(at the risk of alienating people i've just endeared myself to with my
review of the eddie's attic show, here's my personal take on the nature
of sexuality.  this is just my opinion, but that's all anyone's is,
either.  the last time i talked about this on this list -- years ago --
i got hate mail for weeks afterward.  that's not my intent.  believe
me.)

i don't particularly trust people's personal anecdotes that they "knew
they were gay" when they were 5 years old.  when i was 5, i was playing
in a sandbox with a plastic airplane.  that's what i remember.  when i
was in the first grade, my best friend and i had a crush on a girl
because she had long pretty hair.  that wasn't about sexuality, either.
it was just an early perception of beauty (which isn't the same thing).
i've been put in sexual situations before i knew what sex was and didn't
have a clue what people were asking me to do.  i only realized what they
were really trying to get me to do in such episodes years later.
personal anecdotes aren't proof of anything except that person's
perception and interpretation of events.  statements like "i always knew
i was different but i didn't know what it was until later on in life"
are reconstructive rationalizations.  i remember studying cognitive
psychology in college and, in particular, experiments with split-brain
patients (people who had the connection between the two sides of their
brains severed so they couldn't communicate with each other).  in the
experiments, they'd show the word "apple" to one of the patient's eyes
and a picture of a bird to the other eye and then ask the person to draw
what he saw.  he'd start to draw an apple with one hand and then the
other hand would forcibly try to take over and turn the picture into a
bird.  they'd ask him to explain what he did and he insisted that he
picture he'd drawn (that now looked like a bird) was an apple.  he
couldn't explain the behavior of his other hand and rationalized that it
was just a badly drawn apple.  my point is, that from the outside
looking in, you could see what was really going on with the patient but
from the inside (without full knowledge of what was happening inside his
own mind), he simply tried to rationalize an explanation based on all he
had to go on.  he was completely convinced of his explanation of his own
behavior ... but he was wrong.

imprinting.  another experiment i remember from cognitive psychology
class involved taking newborn ducks and replacing their mother with a
bowling ball.  the ducks followed it around as if it were their mother.
when their mother was reintroduced, they continued to follow the bowling
ball because they had already "imprinted" their "follow" instinct on the
bowling ball as the object to follow.  so here's my theory about
sexuality.  we have a sexual attraction instinct, but the object upon
which we fixate isn't necessarily predetermined.  individual experience
(and individual interpretation of experiences) can lead to the
construction of sexual stimulus-response associations.  and repeated
exposure can reinforce those associations once they've been established.
this also works to explain why "deprogramming" (extinguishing
established sexual stimulus-response associations) doesn't work (or, at
least, isn't at all easy to do).  in those college lab experiments where
you teach a pigeon to press a button to get food, the way you extinguish
that behavior is to remove the stimulus (or to introduce a negative
external consequence whenever the behavior exhibits itself).  in trying
to remove such a sexual response, it would be nearly impossible to
remove someone's exposure to all people of the same sex while continuing
their day-to-day life while waiting for the association to atrophy.  (in
fact, it's probably a lot easier to remove someone's exposure to people
of the _opposite_ sex and continue a day-to-day life.)  introducing
negative consequences (like shock therapy) isn't a good idea even if it
did work.  but, more than that, i think that the building of this
association probably has a physical reality (i.e., it probably has to do
with building physical pathways in the brain) and i'm not sure it's as
easy for our brains to disconnect physical links as it may be to
construct them in the first place.  (i mean, you can learn new things,
but can you "unlearn" things?)

correlation studies.  the only "hard scientific studies" i've heard of
that are offered as proof of physical differences between homosexuals
and heterosexuals have only seemed to involve correlation studies (e.g.,
with physical brain attributes).  but correlation studies don't imply
anything about cause and effect.  they only imply a statistically
significant correlation that makes random chance unlikely.  the physical
brain differences could just as easily be the result of behavior (or
thoughts) as the cause.

"why would anybody choose a life of discrimination?"  this is argument
is no proof of anything.  people choose to do _lots_ of things that
aren't in their best interest.  plenty of people have self-destructive
personalities.

why does it matter if it's strictly choice?  well, if it really were
true that there's no biological predetermination to sexual orientation
and that it's all a matter of nurture and not nature, then people who
disapprove of certain behavior probably have a point about not wanting
to expose their children to ideas they believe will "corrupt" their
development.  people do have a right to their own opinion about
homosexuality.  they don't have a right to impose their opinion on how
others live their lives.  i don't think it can be reasonably argued that
our bodies were designed for some of the sexual behavior in which some
people choose to engage.  but one of the defining attributes of the
human species is the capacity not to be limited by our animal instincts.
we can choose not to be carnivores, for example (as some people do).

regardless of the origin, though, no one should turn on themselves about
things they feel.  but preventing people from committing suicide because
they don't want to be gay is different from the goal of establishing
"gay heroes".  the people i admire who happen to be gay aren't heroes to
me because they're gay (except maybe indirectly as a measure of their
capacity to overcome discrimination).  generally, the qualities i admire
in them have little to do with their sexuality.  i tend to divide my
reactions to people into several categories (affinity, affection,
physical attraction, emotional response, intellectual stimulation,
psychological attraction) all of which mean different things to me and
which rarely point in the same direction for me from one person to the
next.  some categories are more important to me than others (and
physical attraction isn't at the top of the list).  i have very
contradictory feelings towards people, but i don't worry about which
feeling i'm "supposed to" have about someone.  i just feel what i feel
and let it be.

why are two women more acceptable than two men?  um.  i think it
primarily has to do with the physical acts being performed.  two women
aren't ever doing anything more than mutual masturbation whereas men are
redefining the use of an orifice that wasn't designed for sex.  it is
not a part of the fundamental male psyche to be penetrated.  a man has
to do some serious reorientation of his psyche to decide that
penetration is a good thing.

(again, i'm not trying to offend anybody with what i've said.  i haven't
said it in hate, so please don't respond in hate.  but feel free to
respectfully disagree with any or all of it.)

ron
--
ron mcbay                | let the man whose words ring true
usul@mindspring.com      | speak on up til his voice breaks through
www.mindspring.com/~usul |  the silence.
       /hoops.html       |
       /billy-bragg.html | -- "today (watch me shine)"
       /view.html        |     everlast

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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 02:38:35 pst
reply-to:     intractable spice <jillyc@hotmail.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         intractable spice <jillyc@hotmail.com>
subject:      re: eddie's attic shows
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ron rocks.

>about watching tv and how she missed an old tv show (soap
>opera?) called "avalon".
why yes, i believe it's on the wb network.  hee.

>danielle... was talking about... starting up bee-keeping
snicker giggle snigger.  that is so danielle howle.  she cracks me the
hell up.  just adorable.

>i always want to hear danielle do a whole show of country
>covers just to showcase how full her voice is.
on do a two sable, listen to the song if you wanna leave.  the way she
just full-out swings that looping whip of a voice when she says, "but
the storm you want to perform right here in this bar-- oh, it ain't
about me, oh no-ohh" just kills me.  love to belt that part out with
her. and i hate country.  but i remember seeing her last year, in
dayton, ohio, and she asked the audience if we liked country.  uh, no.
crowd not receptive to the twang.  well, she said, we just haven't heard
*good* country.  and then she launched into some and it just blew us
away.  my point being (um, my point?) that even little gutter punks
enjoy howle-style country. ;)

>oh, osalyn (sp?)
oh rosalynn.  not that i've heard it, i've just heard you guys talk
about it enough. heh.

>lots of talking (especially whenever danielle was up)
i'll kill 'em.  lemme at 'em.

>the boys just laugh - i could've sworn that ... oh, never mind.
what?  what could you have sworn?!  what???
tell meeeee pleeeease ron please please pleasepleaseplease
(i must fill my shallow miserable existence with anecdotes and thoughts
of people i will never make the acquaintance of, so just humor me,
please?)

>stopped in the middle of it and said, "i can't get through that."
more histrionics!:  tell me you booted this?!

>surprise special guest: kristen hall.
...and a sharp screaming intake of breath over here in the ohio
cornfields as i yet again rue my sorry state.

>i was too busy trying to remember how to breathe.
i trust normal oxygenation capabilities have been fully restored and you
are well, albeit rather lightheaded?

>she did say that both she and emily had lots of new songs,
>so much so that they might have to do a double album.
now i'm the one feeling lightheaded.

must... go.. lie... down...
jill

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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 02:46:39 pst
reply-to:     intractable spice <jillyc@hotmail.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         intractable spice <jillyc@hotmail.com>
subject:      netspace going nuts!
mime-version: 1.0
content-type: text/plain

wtf is going on? today, i've received list mail from no less than half a
dozen lists to which i am most certainly not subbed.  such as this:

>date:  mon, 28 dec 1998 15:42:03 est
>reply-to: cnfsnprnce@aol.com
>from:  frank seanez <cnfsnprnce@aol.com>
>subject:      status of red halloween b&p - odds and sods
>to:    sci@netspace.org
>
>hey now, friends of cheesus!  the b&p has swelled to 20 (12 xlii, 7
xliis and
>1 mxs) by noontime today.  i'm steadily spinning and will continue
throughout
>the steeler swan song this evening in anticipation of an even greater
>burgeoning interest in this largest of all the b&ps to date.  odds and
sods
>going out today are to joel tarantal and james mullins.  will the
person who
>got two dallas incident first sets please contact jeff impson to set up
a
>switch for one of his two dallas incident second sets?


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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 03:01:32 pst
reply-to:     intractable spice <jillyc@hotmail.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         intractable spice <jillyc@hotmail.com>
subject:      re: nigc sexuality issues
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something to the effect of
>there are 3 aspects of sexual orientation:  orientation,
identification, and behavior.

actually there's more like 7 or 8.  go here:
http://www.york.ac.uk/~ajw107/kinsey.htm
http://www.qrd.tcp.com/qrd/orgs/brc/klein.txt

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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 07:53:29 est
reply-to:     avedyke@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         "dawn m. kivisto" <avedyke@aol.com>
subject:      re: nigc sexuality issues, my 2 bits
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okay, my turn.  not like i take turns in any discussions or anything, but oh
well.  my personal experience is that i was born gay.  i really had no choice
in the matter.  i think (in retrospect) that i probably knew it at an early
age--tomboy, almost cried when my mom wouldn't buy me boy's underwear when i
was 5, wanted to be han solo when we played star wars just so i could kiss
princess lea, etc.--but didn't really realize it or really know what gay was.
i grew up in a rather uptight town...okay, a homophobic, republican, yuppie
nightmare, but i digress.  when i finally did get a sense of what gay was, it
was a negative one.  i'm sure we all remember the scene from ellen's "puppy
episode" where she damn near breaks down her male friend's hotel room door
uttering the statement "i'll show you who's gay!"  i think i went through a
5-year-long version of that...minus the breaking down of the hotel room door.
i'm not entirely sure what finally made me come to my senses, but it seemed
like i just woke up one day and realized that being a lesbian didn't make me
sick, or evil, or even a different person than i was.  it wasn't even like it
was a separate part of my being...it was just one of those little facets of me
as a whole, and the more people i came out to, the more i realized that, on
the whole, people really don't care who you take to bed at night.  it's who
you are as a person that counts.  no one experience or traumatic life event or
influence made me gay.  i just am.  i find it reprehensible that there are
people in this country who insist on filling the media with anti-gay
statements, let alone promote the notion that homosexuality is a "disease"
that can be "cured."  if i'm sick, then leave me alone...i'm happy this way.

okay, i'll climb down off my soapbox now....

dawn

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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 07:26:07 -0600
reply-to:     sheryl jones <sljones1@facstaff.wisc.edu>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         sheryl jones <sljones1@facstaff.wisc.edu>
subject:      re: eddie's attic
in-reply-to:  <19981229000009.26730.qmail@hotmail.com>
mime-version: 1.0
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i'm interested in the boot from 12/27 eddie's attic as well.  also shawn's
show if anyone has that.  i have plenty to trade.
----------------------------------------------------------
sheryl jones
sljones1@facstaff.wisc.edu
cooper seay page:
http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/field/3349/cooper/cooper.htm
bootleg page: http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/field/3349/boots.htm

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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 09:02:21 -0500
reply-to:     "i am 32 flavors and then some..." <tisara@www.webworqs.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         "i am 32 flavors and then some..." <tisara@www.webworqs.com>
subject:      sexuality
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ron had some really interesting things to say, and valid by some token.  i
don't agree with all of it, just because i don't fully believe in any
science - esp. not one that claims that we can all be pretty much
categorized by a few facets of our personality/makeup.  doesn't mean
psychology is bad or wrong, but neither am i.

that being said...

yes, i can say with much clarity that i felt different from the kids
around me growing up, but i will never say it was because of the sexuality
issue.  no, i had no idea i was a lesbian when i was 5.  but this is where
my prob with the idea of imprinting comes in.  -if- that idea were
completely valid, i would be heterosexual...in fact everyone that was
raised by straight parents would be.  in addition, everything that
surrounds us (tv, movies, magazines etc) are just laden with heterosexual
images.  that doesn't make me any more straight.  it just makes me who i
am, and whoever that is - certainly does not fit in any psychological box.

i will say this:  knowing who i am now makes a lot of things i didn't
understand about my past make sense.  that's where i agree with ron (i
think he called it reconstructive realization)...i understand why i was so
fascinated with my first grade teacher, and why i thought her beauty
transcended all others (and yes i really thought like that when i was 5
and in first grade...i'm a freak, always have been...probably why i'm a
write now!) i understand now why when i tried to have a relationship with
a boy, something just didn't feel right.  i understand why i was drawn to
strong women.  but it wasn't until i was 19 that i could actually
understand that there was a name for it, and it was okay (actually when i
was 19 i said i was bisexual, and at 21 a lesbian; i said the former
because i was afraid of what my family would say and it was a way of being
who i really was and still offering a chance that i could end up married
to a man and have his 2 point 5...i said the latter because 2 years of
pretending after 19 years of blissful ignorance was enough).

i would also like to say this:  the above is my opinion.  it is -my- view
on my life and life in general as i see it.  you don't have to agree, or
even comment...i just thought i would share.

--audra


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=<www.geocities.com/westhollywood/2670>=*=<www.angelfire.com/pa/tisara/>=

"between you and me there is no straight line/and the angle that i see
has grown wider with time/the unknown to our equation is how to love
without pride/but it's beyond that natural boundary/so we chalk it up
to too much love and too little time." - beth wood "geometry"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 09:59:44 -0500
reply-to:     "i am 32 flavors and then some..." <tisara@www.webworqs.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         "i am 32 flavors and then some..." <tisara@www.webworqs.com>
subject:      birthdays (dec 28 - jan 3)
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happy birthday to...

december 28 ('73)
han-esther@yale.edu (the babesther)

december 30 ('73)
smurphy@juno.com (sundara)
"he said it's a long road to be forgiven..."
"when you're learning to face the path at your pace every choice is
worth your while..."
"they tell me i'll be the first to praise the sun..."

december 31 (' 70)
rebecca lyon beccie@websunshine.com

december 31 ('70)
rcxsj@unix.ccc.nottingham.ad.uk (sharon jennings)
"you said good friends are hard to come by..."
"dry your tears, don't be thinking grey is here to stay..."

december 31
oh.susanna@dartmouth.edu (susan marine)


                                and to all a happy new year!!!

:)
--audra


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=<www.geocities.com/westhollywood/2670>=*=<www.angelfire.com/pa/tisara/>=

"between you and me there is no straight line/and the angle that i see
has grown wider with time/the unknown to our equation is how to love
without pride/but it's beyond that natural boundary/so we chalk it up
to too much love and too little time." - beth wood "geometry"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 13:45:58 -0500
reply-to:     sb <sharonb@geocities.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         sb <sharonb@geocities.com>
subject:      re: where were you -- a story.
x-to:         wishmonstr@aol.com
mime-version: 1.0
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    just thought i'd share with everybody that i, too, started listening to the
indigo girls because of summer camp.  my summer camp indigo experience was
probably about 5 or 6 years ago when i was about 14.  i at girl scout camp and one
of my counselors had brought her guitar and played several indigo girls songs.
she also had the self titled album which she played a lot and which i fell in love
with.  so, as soon as i got home from camp that week i went to the store and
bought it.  and that's my lovely story as to how i started listening to the indigo
girls.  =)

take care,
sharon

--
"three men in a desert wandering, one is knowing and two are scared.
they say time is in the river, oh but the river is not there.
dry in spirit, dry in body, two will lend themselves to death.
and in grief one weeps into his hands and drinks his bitter tears."

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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 14:47:16 -0500
reply-to:     mcunningham5@earthlink.net
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         michael cunningham <mcunningham5@earthlink.net>
subject:      how many times?
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hkf's,

even though this might be a little late - i thought this was awesome to
actually post where you've seen them, not just the number of times...  so
here's goes nothin'!!!  my number (and the day i was born) is 11.

1.      06/28/94 - radio city, nyc
2.      04/27/95 - lehigh u., bethlehem, pa
3.      08/13/97 - scranton, pa - lf
4.      09/15/97 - poughkeepsie, ny - hte
5.      10/28/97 - palace theater, new haven, ct
6.      04/30/98 - furman u., greenville, sc
7.      07/04/98 - deer creek, indy, in - lf
8.      07/05/98 - polaris, columbus, oh - lf
9.      08/02/98 - eddie's attic, decatur, ga
10.     08/05/98 - the roxy, atlanta, ga
11.     11/18/98 - eddie's attic, (amy, rose, beth, danielle)

favorite ig-show above: radio city, ny
why: first ig show!
favorite concert above: lilith fair, scranton, pa
why: 3rd row!

i certainly gave my .02 worth on this one!!!!!!
8-)
a+e=ig

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date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 10:39:15 -0800
reply-to:     hawke2@msn.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         ryan blackhawke <hawke2@msn.com>
subject:      re: nigc sexuality issues
x-to:         ron mcbay <usul@mindspring.com>
in-reply-to:  <009801be3311$2ee0d620$e4f645cf@ron-s-laptop>
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        >why are two women more acceptable than two men?  um.  i think it
        >primarily has to do with the physical acts being performed.  two women
        >aren't ever doing anything more than mutual masturbation whereas men are
        >redefining the use of an orifice that wasn't designed for sex.  it is
        >not a part of the fundamental male psyche to be penetrated.  a man has
        >to do some serious reorientation of his psyche to decide that
        >penetration is a good thing.

hey now! when my lover and i were having sex (someone please explain to me
the phenomenon known as lesbian bed death and how to cure it) we were doing
much more than mutual masturbation. but yeah, i'd have to agree with this
part of the analysis (excuse the pun). for some reason, it also seems much
easier for us to hide our orientation than it is for men.

-----original message-----
from: indigo girls mailing list [mailto:indigo-girls@netspace.org]on
behalf of ron mcbay
sent: tuesday, 29 december, 1998 1:54 am
to: indigo-girls@netspace.org
subject: re: nigc sexuality issues


(at the risk of alienating people i've just endeared myself to with my
review of the eddie's attic show, here's my personal take on the nature
of sexuality.  this is just my opinion, but that's all anyone's is,
either.  the last time i talked about this on this list -- years ago --
i got hate mail for weeks afterward.  that's not my intent.  believe
me.)

i don't particularly trust people's personal anecdotes that they "knew
they were gay" when they were 5 years old.  when i was 5, i was playing
in a sandbox with a plastic airplane.  that's what i remember.  when i
was in the first grade, my best friend and i had a crush on a girl
because she had long pretty hair.  that wasn't about sexuality, either.
it was just an early perception of beauty (which isn't the same thing).
i've been put in sexual situations before i knew what sex was and didn't
have a clue what people were asking me to do.  i only realized what they
were really trying to get me to do in such episodes years later.
personal anecdotes aren't proof of anything except that person's
perception and interpretation of events.  statements like "i always knew
i was different but i didn't know what it was until later on in life"
are reconstructive rationalizations.  i remember studying cognitive
psychology in college and, in particular, experiments with split-brain
patients (people who had the connection between the two sides of their
brains severed so they couldn't communicate with each other).  in the
experiments, they'd show the word "apple" to one of the patient's eyes
and a picture of a bird to the other eye and then ask the person to draw
what he saw.  he'd start to draw an apple with one hand and then the
other hand would forcibly try to take over and turn the picture into a
bird.  they'd ask him to explain what he did and he insisted that he
picture he'd drawn (that now looked like a bird) was an apple.  he
couldn't explain the behavior of his other hand and rationalized that it
was just a badly drawn apple.  my point is, that from the outside
looking in, you could see what was really going on with the patient but
from the inside (without full knowledge of what was happening inside his
own mind), he simply tried to rationalize an explanation based on all he
had to go on.  he was completely convinced of his explanation of his own
behavior ... but he was wrong.

imprinting.  another experiment i remember from cognitive psychology
class involved taking newborn ducks and replacing their mother with a
bowling ball.  the ducks followed it around as if it were their mother.
when their mother was reintroduced, they continued to follow the bowling
ball because they had already "imprinted" their "follow" instinct on the
bowling ball as the object to follow.  so here's my theory about
sexuality.  we have a sexual attraction instinct, but the object upon
which we fixate isn't necessarily predetermined.  individual experience
(and individual interpretation of experiences) can lead to the
construction of sexual stimulus-response associations.  and repeated
exposure can reinforce those associations once they've been established.
this also works to explain why "deprogramming" (extinguishing
established sexual stimulus-response associations) doesn't work (or, at
least, isn't at all easy to do).  in those college lab experiments where
you teach a pigeon to press a button to get food, the way you extinguish
that behavior is to remove the stimulus (or to introduce a negative
external consequence whenever the behavior exhibits itself).  in trying
to remove such a sexual response, it would be nearly impossible to
remove someone's exposure to all people of the same sex while continuing
their day-to-day life while waiting for the association to atrophy.  (in
fact, it's probably a lot easier to remove someone's exposure to people
of the _opposite_ sex and continue a day-to-day life.)  introducing
negative consequences (like shock therapy) isn't a good idea even if it
did work.  but, more than that, i think that the building of this
association probably has a physical reality (i.e., it probably has to do
with building physical pathways in the brain) and i'm not sure it's as
easy for our brains to disconnect physical links as it may be to
construct them in the first place.  (i mean, you can learn new things,
but can you "unlearn" things?)

correlation studies.  the only "hard scientific studies" i've heard of
that are offered as proof of physical differences between homosexuals
and heterosexuals have only seemed to involve correlation studies (e.g.,
with physical brain attributes).  but correlation studies don't imply
anything about cause and effect.  they only imply a statistically
significant correlation that makes random chance unlikely.  the physical
brain differences could just as easily be the result of behavior (or
thoughts) as the cause.

"why would anybody choose a life of discrimination?"  this is argument
is no proof of anything.  people choose to do _lots_ of things that
aren't in their best interest.  plenty of people have self-destructive
personalities.

why does it matter if it's strictly choice?  well, if it really were
true that there's no biological predetermination to sexual orientation
and that it's all a matter of nurture and not nature, then people who
disapprove of certain behavior probably have a point about not wanting
to expose their children to ideas they believe will "corrupt" their
development.  people do have a right to their own opinion about
homosexuality.  they don't have a right to impose their opinion on how
others live their lives.  i don't think it can be reasonably argued that
our bodies were designed for some of the sexual behavior in which some
people choose to engage.  but one of the defining attributes of the
human species is the capacity not to be limited by our animal instincts.
we can choose not to be carnivores, for example (as some people do).

regardless of the origin, though, no one should turn on themselves about
things they feel.  but preventing people from committing suicide because
they don't want to be gay is different from the goal of establishing
"gay heroes".  the people i admire who happen to be gay aren't heroes to
me because they're gay (except maybe indirectly as a measure of their
capacity to overcome discrimination).  generally, the qualities i admire
in them have little to do with their sexuality.  i tend to divide my
reactions to people into several categories (affinity, affection,
physical attraction, emotional response, intellectual stimulation,
psychological attraction) all of which mean different things to me and
which rarely point in the same direction for me from one person to the
next.  some categories are more important to me than others (and
physical attraction isn't at the top of the list).  i have very
contradictory feelings towards people, but i don't worry about which
feeling i'm "supposed to" have about someone.  i just feel what i feel
and let it be.

why are two women more acceptable than two men?  um.  i think it
primarily has to do with the physical acts being performed.  two women
aren't ever doing anything more than mutual masturbation whereas men are
redefining the use of an orifice that wasn't designed for sex.  it is
not a part of the fundamental male psyche to be penetrated.  a man has
to do some serious reorientation of his psyche to decide that
penetration is a good thing.

(again, i'm not trying to offend anybody with what i've said.  i haven't
said it in hate, so please don't respond in hate.  but feel free to
respectfully disagree with any or all of it.)

ron
--
ron mcbay                | let the man whose words ring true
usul@mindspring.com      | speak on up til his voice breaks through
www.mindspring.com/~usul |  the silence.
       /hoops.html       |
       /billy-bragg.html | -- "today (watch me shine)"
       /view.html        |     everlast

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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 12:03:07 pst
reply-to:     shelley miller <strange_fire66@hotmail.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         shelley miller <strange_fire66@hotmail.com>
subject:      tina & the b-sides tonight!
x-to:         indigogirls@egroups.hotmail.com
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i know its late notice, but is anyone else going to see tina & the
b-sides at joe's in chicago tonight?

______________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 15:45:03 -0600
reply-to:     sheryl jones <sljones1@facstaff.wisc.edu>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         sheryl jones <sljones1@facstaff.wisc.edu>
subject:      nigc: cooper seay chatroom
mime-version: 1.0
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after a brief, unplanned haitus, my cooper seay chatroom is back up.  the url:

<http://pluto.beseen.looksmart.com/chat/rooms/i/913207>

enjoy!

----------------------------------------------------------
sheryl jones
sljones1@facstaff.wisc.edu
cooper seay page:
http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/field/3349/cooper/cooper.htm
bootleg page: http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/field/3349/boots.htm

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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 18:17:20 est
reply-to:     wishmonstr@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         "e. moranian bolles, the badass lchrn lassie" <wishmonstr@aol.com>
subject:      nigc - sexuality stuff  (kind of a response to ron)
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first off...
              a big ol' "amen" to ron!  =)  there were one or two minor points
i disagreed with, but mostly i agreed wholeheartedly.

having said that...
              i suppose i can't really know, but it does seem unlikely that
every day a five yearold puts down her crayon and says, "you know, i've given
it some thought, and i've decided i am a lesbian -- that is, i plan to spend
my life with women as partners.  yes mommy, this *is* the real reason i like
that song the rainbow connection..."
              granted, i assume that's not really what someone means when they
say "i've known since i was five", but how far from that can it be if what's
meant is said?  hell, in retrospect i can see things when i was five that
could indicate (and apparently did) someone will grow up to be gay or have
"gender issues" or whatever you want to call it.  and yes, i've always been
different -- but frankly, i'm just like the rest of my relatives, and those
differences probably have more to do with add than lesbian tendencies.  sure i
was a tomboy.  but lots of girls get holes in their pants and wear baseball
caps.  on that front, i think the moment of truth came when the other girls
stopped wearing them, and i persisted.
               the point (and i do have one) of this is, can people more
honestly say "i knew i was gay when i was five" or "with the benefit of
hindsight, i can see i was gay when i was five" ?

in an effort to redeem myself, i add...
                 i do believe it's *possible* to know early on -- a girl in my
sister's first grade class (who always wears her softball team cap backwards,
and insists on gender-neutral clothes) stood up one day and announced she felt
she was meant to be born a boy, is really a girl in body only, and prefers to
identify as a guy.  however, this wasn't so much a statement of sexuality as
of gender --

and thus my final concluding point...
                   it's possible to know rather young, but it's more likely
that most people who believe to have had such insight are rather able to see
with the benefit of retrospect that *if* they had had reason to know they
would have.

off the soapbox. =)

~ elizabeth

************************
"every five days or so..."
-- emily

************************

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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 16:19:04 pst
reply-to:     julie <mememi@excite.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         julie <mememi@excite.com>
subject:      re: eddie's attic shows
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> >the boys just laugh - i could've sworn that ... oh, never mind.
> what?  what could you have sworn?!  what???
> tell meeeee pleeeease ron please please pleasepleaseplease
> (i must fill my shallow miserable existence with anecdotes and thoughts
> of people i will never make the acquaintance of, so just humor me,
> please?)
>

i agree.  you're just being cruel to us.  tell us.
pleeeeeeeeeese?!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 19:48:13 est
reply-to:     opihf@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         alison vickery <opihf@aol.com>
subject:      digest response
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sorry for the unclear title, folks, but being on th digest i find it easier to
respond to  a whle digest at once rather than each article.  first off- ron'
comments, specifically, "
"why would anybody choose a life of discrimination?"  this is argument
is no proof of anything.  people choose to do _lots_ of things that
aren't in their best interest.  plenty of people have self-destructive
personalities.

(soapbox on/)speaking strictly for myself i can say that i had one choice: to
act on my sexuality or not.  i'm 28 years old, and i have only admitted that
i'm gay in the last year.  that's 28 years of trying pretty damned hard to
deny everything that was me.  i didn't dte boys- i didn't date anyone.  i
don't think i chose to be gay, i think i chose to accept it.  you telll me
what's self-destructive, accepting myself nd trying to find happiness or
running away from everything i feel?  and do a little reading on kinsey (not
that kinsey's the be all and end all) while you're reading all these studies-
many people fall somewhere between exclusively gay and exclusively straight.
maybe some of those folks can choose where to put their allegiance, but not
all of us can.  and, no, ron, we're not out there recruiting.  i'm a teacher
and your children are safer with me than with most people.  last thing- you
might think again before you talk about what parts of the body are designed
for.  who's to say that what you do with a body part is what it's "designed
for."  and, no, what lesbians do is not, "merely mutual masturbation"  that is
a really heterocentric viewpoint.  and just so you know, i'm not writing in
hate as you put it, but to hopefully shed a little light for you, before you
say those things in the wrong place and someone does respond with hate or
hurt.(soapbox off/)

next, i have to add to the girl scout camp list.  my first encounter with the
girls was in 1989 when my camp director played closer to fine for me.  it's
all been joy since then:o)   there was more i wanted to respond to, but i've
forgotten.  sorry for ranting!
i hope 1999 brings you all joy and lots of indigo schtuff!

alison

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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 22:46:15 est
reply-to:     lythande99@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         "timothy j. baldwin" <lythande99@aol.com>
subject:      re: nigc sexuality issues
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in a message dated 98-12-29 04:46:26 est, usul@mindspring.com writes:

<< why are two women more acceptable than two men?  um.  i think it
primarily has to do with the physical acts being performed.  two women
aren't ever doing anything more than mutual masturbation whereas men are
redefining the use of an orifice that wasn't designed for sex. >>

excuse me????

not to flame, but generalizations suck.....

lovemaking is far more than mere physical acts.....and both statements make
assumptions that aren't necessarily true.....

intercourse is a reproductive function.....lovemaking is an art.....

regarding the comment on lesbian bed death.....i don't think that's any
different than a similar phenomenon among hetero couples who've been together
for a long period of time.....changing circumstances, career pressures, the
aging process, and many other factors can combine to remove the passion from a
relationship.....it takes work to keep the fire burning......

peace, love, and harmony....
tim

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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 21:53:25 -0700
reply-to:     carrie leger <cmppub@onr.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         carrie leger <cmppub@onr.com>
subject:      what a good christmas
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i just had to say that for christmas i got the jesus christ superstar video
that was filmed at south by southwest.  it is so good, i hadn't seen it yet.
i was so impressed with the filming of it.  i also heard that they did it
with only one day of rehearsal, does anyone know if that's true?  anyway i
am very happy to add this to my ig collection!
carrie

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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 23:03:28 -0500
reply-to:     rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
subject:      tim's answer to the questions pondered here of late
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thanks tim once again for the voice of reason in the night....i am sitting
here right now crying over my ex and feeling like a dufus....sorry to post
this but i am just hurtin and wanted to share i guess.... :o)


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
peace love and light

beccie lyon
remember.........
"i'm going to love you good and strong while our love is good and young"
indigo girls.....shaming of the sun....get out the map

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 00:21:15 -0500
reply-to:     rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
subject:      <blushin>
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thanks guys...feelin a lot better now...had to cry at least once over all
this hadn't done that and it has been four weeks since it all happened...you
know we here on the list may come from all walks of life an all viewpoints,
as our latest discussion has proved....but we all have one common
thread...... pure human decency...and i think a lot of it has to do with the
music that these two wonderful women have created....they put all of that
emotion out there for us to touch and feel and experience right along with
them....it is wonderful to be able to put a cd in your cd player that
encompasses every emotion you have ever felt and that makes you glad to be
alive.....aint it....  hey i got a thread for you....what ig song would you
most like to make love to??? i know it is a little risky but just curious
....
mine is touch me fall...i love that one and it builds up into such a climax,
pardon the pun.....
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
peace love and light

beccie lyon
remember.........
"i'm going to love you good and strong while our love is good and young"
indigo girls.....shaming of the sun....get out the map

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 00:34:51 est
reply-to:     ndgogrrrrl@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         digest anonymous <ndgogrrrrl@aol.com>
subject:      re: nigc
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isn't there some unspoken rule about sexual innuendos? just wondering
*going to therapy to wipe the image from my brain*

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 00:43:27 est
reply-to:     sylcat79@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         mary beth sylvester <sylcat79@aol.com>
subject:      ig sex  ;o)
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'touch me fall' is a great pick.  i think the entire sots album is fitting
background music, particularly 'shed your skin' for fast-paced fun.  'power of
two' for someone you love....'tangled up in blue' is also a favorite...ok,
what is my extensive list saying about me?????

;o),
sly.

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 00:45:35 est
reply-to:     lythande99@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         "timothy j. baldwin" <lythande99@aol.com>
subject:      re: <.blushin>
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in a message dated 98-12-30 00:28:20 est, beccie@websunshine.com writes:

<< hey i got a thread for you....what ig song would you
most like to make love to??? >>

"everything in it's own time"

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 00:51:55 -0500
reply-to:     rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
subject:      oops sorry
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sorry about my question guys...didn't mean to offend anyone....just rambling
a bit tonight
making penance to the digest gods...saying three shame one yous and two
jokings
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
peace love and light

beccie lyon
remember.........
"i'm going to love you good and strong while our love is good and young"
indigo girls.....shaming of the sun....get out the map

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 00:58:37 est
reply-to:     carol petricevic <chickenwomyn@hotmail.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         carol petricevic <chickenwomyn@hotmail.com>
subject:      ahhh!!
mime-version: 1.0
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this is the weirdest thing.  i set back to set indigo-girls mail after
vacation....
and now i'm on at least 5 lists...ig, allman bros, phish, a naturalist
group & some solitare group...plus others i might not have recieved yet.
hmmm, igc....
um....
the south still bothers me.  too many things named "indigo"  there was a
store plainly called indigo in charleston sc....oy
carol

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date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 01:06:36 -0500
reply-to:     debbie woodell <woodeld@phillynews.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         debbie woodell <woodeld@phillynews.com>
subject:      re: <blushin>
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beccie wrote:

>what ig song would you
> most like to make love to???
        "power of two"
deb

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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 29 dec 1998 22:04:46 -0800
reply-to:     hawke2@msn.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         ryan blackhawke <hawke2@msn.com>
subject:      re: nigc sexuality issues
x-to:         lythande99@aol.com
in-reply-to:  <1fe2d206.3689a207@aol.com>
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>regarding the comment on lesbian bed death.....i don't >think that's any
>different than a similar phenomenon among hetero >couples who've been
together
>for a long period of time.....changing circumstances, >career pressures,
the
>aging process, and many other factors can combine to >remove the passion
from a
>relationship.....it takes work to keep the fire >burning......

so true, so true. we haven't been together that long (going on 4 years which
is a record for me). its strange the patterns i see with r-ships that last
over a year. at first it seems you start out and its sexsexsex all the time.
we were like that. i think it is a prelude to getting to know someone and
moving from sex into lovemaking. i saw our sex life drop off dramatically
when we both started working for the "evil empire" (the one currently being
sued by the government) cuz, well, 50+ hours a week plus 3 teens leaves
little time for much else. but the intimacy we now share is so very strong.
i think i'd take intimacy over sex any day. i think thats the difference
between sex and lovemaking. its just so disturbing to see that sex drive
disappearing when i took such pride in it (my lovers told me i'm sooo male
in that respect. talk about your generalizations...)

anyway, enuff of my ramblings.

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 01:44:46 -0500
reply-to:     rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
subject:      good night all
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well, its good to see that not everyone on the list is off for christmas
break i was beginning to think that the my mail box was broken...you guys
take care and thanks again for helping me to get out of the dumps.......i
love this list you guys all rock!!!!!

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
peace love and light

beccie lyon
remember.........
"i'm going to love you good and strong while our love is good and young"
indigo girls.....shaming of the sun....get out the map

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date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 00:51:50 -0800
reply-to:     arjuna greist <agreist@calvin.pitzer.edu>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         arjuna greist <agreist@calvin.pitzer.edu>
subject:      my .02 (or $42) on that queer thang
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content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

dear indigo people,
i haven't posted in the longest time, so i figure i'm allowed a long
ramble. ;) i'm back in ct now & listening to a lot of the girls as always,
but that's not what i'm gonna post about today. here's a little story from
my life:

you've all played that middle school sleep-over game. going into the
closet with someone for seven minutes in heaven. well, if the closet is
heaven, i spent a grand total of two minutes there. you see, i knew from a
very early age that i was straight. my first crush was on a
twenty-something guy who i later found out was gay. that was when i was
four. and it was all downhill from there. i was boy-crazy, only liking
guys (many, many guys, many of them gay, for some reason) for the greater
part of my young life. i was not a happy camper.

don't get me wrong- i had (and have) many wonderful guy friends, but i
only seemed to attract assholes as romantic mates, which put a damper on
all of my "relationships." i joined gasp (gay and straight people) at my
high school, and neither encouraged nor denied the subsequent rumors about
me. i tried to like girls. i would see these beautiful, funny, caring,
intelligent, wild women all around me & tell myself that they were
everything i could want in a lover, but then i would try the kiss test
(picturing kissing them) and it was "eeeeeaaaauuuu! yuck! cooties!" by the
time i was seventeen, i had given up hope, resigned to be hopelessly
hetero for the rest of my days.

it turned out i simply hadn't met the right woman yet. on the morning of
august 5th, 1998, two weeks before my 18th birthday, i was watching this
angel making bread for lunch and it dawned on me that i was watching her
hands kneading the dough with something other than purely culinary
interest. it took about an hour for it to sink in just what my interest
was, and i almost couldn't believe it. but i did the kiss-test and... it
worked! then i tried some...erm... *other* tests, and they worked too! i
jumped up & screamed "hallefrigginluia!" i was so excited i hardly knew
what to do with myself. it took me just about two minutes to find a friend
& exclaim, guess who *i* have a crush on?!

since then, i've mostly had crushes on women, although i still leave
myself completely open to the possibility of men. im just so ecstatic to
not be limited by a stupid thing like gender that i'm not even worried
about what to call myself. if you wanna call me a lesbian, or a dyke, or a
byke, or a bisexual, or just plain queer, fine with me. i know what i am,
and i don't need a label to tell me how to feel or act.

sooooo... was it a choice? heck, if it was, i would've chosen it a lot
sooner! was i born that way? perhaps, though what a weird set-up: to be
straight for almost 18 years and then suddenly take a slide up the kinsey
scale to an almost opposite position. was i just in denial of my true
sexuality that whole time? *picture me laughing.* if that's denial, i'd
like to see acceptance. if i hadn't met my culinary angel the summer i
turned 18, would i still be straight today? or would i have met my second
woman-love my first week of college & fallen for her? was i ever really
straight to begin with? i don't know the answer to these questions, and
while they make me wonder, to tell the truth i really don't care.

i'm simply grateful for the experiences i've had with women,
whatever the root cause. i am especially thankful for my last girlfriend,
who i loved with all of my heart and soul and body even though she was a
garth brooks fan. ( i wound up getting her into ani & dar & the indigo
girls, so she *was* reasonable.) she was deep in the closet,
and it was far from heaven. being from a traditional catholic, texan,
vietnamese family, she was innundated consciously and subconsciously with
the message that homosexuality is abnormal & sinful, whether it's
biological or chosen. and even though we eventually had to break off our
relationship because of her internalized homophobia, i treasure the memory
of every moment i had with her and take comfort in the knowledge that my
enthusiasm has helped her on her journey to accept her own beautiful self,
and that my time with her has helped me to better understand my brothers
and sisters who do not come from such a joyful place as i in terms
of their sexuality.

the whole nature/nurture debate is completely pointless, because
the two are so intrinsically linked it's impossible to cite one or the
other as a reason for a feeling or a behavior. and, agreeing with chris t,
to say that your sexuality is anyone's fault is to imply that being queer
is a fault at all, which is completely nuts. what i really find queer
is that people care so much, and that there are many out there who made my
love feel so wrong about something which was so right, causing her to
retreat into silence and solitude as a woeful protection.

so, blessed be everyone. take joy in whoever you are, and whoever you
love, whether you've felt one way since you were five, you gradually came
to terms with your identity, or everything suddenly changed one glorious
morning in august. just revel in the fact that you love- it's such a
slinkster-cool thing that we can do!
peace, arjuna the orientationally blessed one.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
im ambidextrous cuz i wanted to be,
im ambisextrous cuz we all got beauty  -me
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 05:20:48 -0500
reply-to:     ron mcbay <usul@mindspring.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         ron mcbay <usul@mindspring.com>
subject:      new local atlanta "supergroup"
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oh, yeah.  i forgot this tidbit in my original review of the eddie's
attic show.

i ran into a couple of ig list oldsters (from so far back that they're
not even on this list anymore; they're on one of the original splinter
ig lists from a few years back) and i heard that michelle malone was
putting together a band that consisted of herself, gerard mchugh,
michael lorant and sheila doyle and they were going to call themselves
the michelle malone stars.

does anybody know anything about this?  is this a temporary side
project, or could it develop into an actual cohesive band?  if they
really tried to stay together and function as a single creative unit,
that could be something really special.

ron
--
ron mcbay                | let the man whose words ring true
usul@mindspring.com      | speak on up til his voice breaks through
www.mindspring.com/~usul |  the silence.
       /hoops.html       |
       /billy-bragg.html | -- "today (watch me shine)"
       /view.html        |     everlast

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 02:53:26 pst
reply-to:     diane wong <arle@hotmail.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         diane wong <arle@hotmail.com>
subject:      ig obsess/#shows/blushin'/nigc
mime-version: 1.0
content-type: text/plain

looking through the latest bmg music catalog (one with 'legacy: a
tribute to fleetwood mac's "rumours"' on the front), i turned the page
to see the pic/promo ad for the lilith fair cd, and to my delight, i
spot emily saliers standing next to lisa loeb and i beam like crazy.
(the 2"x4" pic is a group one that also includes sheryl, sarah, joan,
and other ladies i don't recognize.)

the ig song i would like to make love to: love's recovery.

i have been to a grand total of three indigo girls concerts. he hee!
1. june 27, 1998 - lilith fair, rose bowl, pasadena, ca
2. august 27, 1998 - suffragette session, park west, chicago, il
3. august 28, 1998 - suffragette session, park west, chicago, il

best concert: #3 - 'cause it was so intimate, diverse, and i went wild
hearing the upbeat tempo version of power of two! woohoo!

if any of you have watched the movie, the twilight of the golds,
starring jennifer beals, frank marshall, faye dunaway, and rosie
o'donnell, could you please email me privately?  the movie was
originally done by showtime (a cable tv movie channel) and is about
issues of homosexuality, choice, and family.  it was rather
thought-provoking, and an appropriate movie to watch now, considering
the the topic of late.  good movie to rent, on a day you feel like
watching drama.

love & indigo,
diane

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 06:15:42 -0800
reply-to:     leslie mackrell <lzlie@yahoo.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         leslie mackrell <lzlie@yahoo.com>
subject:      4.5
mime-version: 1.0
content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

what is a decent price range for an unopened 4.5 import?

thanks. reply privately please.

leslie


==
"it doesn't make a difference what temperature a room is, it's always room temperature."- steven wright

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 09:57:14 +0000
reply-to:     j lucero <jlucero@mail.monmouth.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         j lucero <jlucero@mail.monmouth.com>
subject:      nigc:  hotmail problems
mime-version: 1.0
content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

        hi all,

        just a quick note on all the hotmail problems that seem to be cropping up.
it seems that the problem is working in all directions and a whole slew of
people have been added to our list as well as a great number of us being
added to others.
        unfortunately, it's all at hotmail's end...and the list owners have very
little control over it.  the people from hotmail that have been added on do
not show up on subscription lists and therefore cannot be deleted.

        so, just have a little patience while hotmail and all the irate list
owners figure out what's wrong!

                have a very happy new year!

                        jen

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 10:53:47 -0500
reply-to:     "lane, tara e." <telane@trigon.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         "lane, tara e." <telane@trigon.com>
subject:      nigc - the sex/orientation discussion continues
mime-version: 1.0
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well-spoken, arjuna.  my own experience is similar to hers - i dated
*lots* of boys when i was in school - going back to the 2nd grade,
kissing "kenny" in the coat closet, but i also distinctly remember
telling a friend when i was six, "i can't help it that i'm gay" - only
vaguely knowing that it meant i'd rather be with girls than boys. i was
a tomboy and hated barbies, played with my brother's toys, but so did my
childhood best friend, who is now happily married.  maybe it was just
because we looked up to our older brothers so much, and preferred their
toys to our own (you know - matchbox cars and gi joes, action jacksons -
much more exciting than barbie) - i hesitate to think that in my own
circumstance, that it meant anything.  we played softball in the summer,
but were cheerleaders in the fall.  hell, we were cheerleaders in high
school.  i went to all my high school dances - had cute boyfriends that
were great to me - good looking ones too! but yikes - i remember having
a crush on a pretty teacher in middle school - but i had a crush on a
boy-cheerleader in high school, as well as one of the football players -
as well as one of my cheerleader friends.

(this is like 'true-confessions' or something...) i dated through
college - boys, but had crushes on girls - only girls who were my
friends - not strangers, and i've never admired women in a calendar,
but, i dig good-looking guys who i don't know.  only rarely do i dig
good-looking women whom i don't know, but usually, there's more of an
admiration thing going than sexual desire.  after college i had a crush
on a friend who also happened to be gay, and the inevitable took place.
we ended up in a 5-year relationship that about ripped my family to
shreds.  kudos to those of you out there with understanding families,
mine is not one of them.  but i don't know that i blame them really - i
mean, i'd never given them any clue about my feelings towards women, so
they were completely taken by surprise.  at first i was kind of adamant
that i was gay, but upon lots of analysis, i just decided that no labels
fit me, and that i just love people as individuals, not genders.  i
don't want to be limited in any of my choices.  i'm currently involved
with a guy - who is great, and knows my whole history, and could care
less - i mean, in a cool way.  lots of my gay friends are dissing me
like i'm turning my back on them or something, when it's really the
other way around.  i'm still *hugely* supportive of the whole gay-rights
thing, but if i feel something for a guy, i'm gonna follow my heart, the
same as if i feel something for a girl.

that's funny too about what arjuna said about her first love's hands,
because i was/am like that about hands too, especially those of my
ex-girl.  :)

so here's a question.  when i saw a psychologist about this whole mess,
she said all this happened because i was so completely open-minded.
prior, i had seen a psychiatrist who said he thought that gay people
never grew up.  i know i'm not being as technical, but he explained
something about child-development - you know, like how 'normal' girls
are all, "boys have cooties" until they hit puberty, and then, they
become interested.  he said gayness was just when children never grow
out of that phase.  what do ya'll think about that?  valid? ludicrous?
i'm interested in what ya'll have to say.  maybe between us all, we can
figure this stuff out.  i've really enjoyed all your posts - it's really
valuable and interesting to hear your stories and compare experiences.
thanks to ya'll for being so receptive and honest.  i'm shutting up now.
- tara

> im ambidextrous cuz i wanted to be,
> im ambisextrous cuz we all got beauty  -arjuna  (.... i love this, by
> the way...)
>

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 11:41:38 -0600
reply-to:     tim smith or stephanie browne <brownesmith@writeme.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         tim smith or stephanie browne <brownesmith@writeme.com>
subject:      first indigo girls exposure
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i was at a pagan festival in wisconsin called "pagan spirit gathering"
in the summer of 1990 and 2 women got up at a campfire to sing their
rendition of "strange fire". it was beautiful and mesmerizing and
enchanting under a starlit, magical night sky and i knew then that i had
a new favorite band. i returned home to toronto and bought 3 of their
albums the next day. it has all been uphill since then.....!

yours in indigo!
stephanie

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 09:32:21 pst
reply-to:     shelley miller <strange_fire66@hotmail.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         shelley miller <strange_fire66@hotmail.com>
subject:      re: nigc - the sex/orientation discussion continues
mime-version: 1.0
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tara sayeth:

>well-spoken, arjuna.  my own experience is similar to hers - i dated
>*lots* of boys when i was in school - going back to the 2nd grade

i can't say that i dated lots of boys, but i certainly made my attempts.
kissing in the coat closet...heck, when i was in the second grade, my
"boyfriend" and i got married on the playground, complete with a dayglo
plastic ring.

>vaguely knowing that it meant i'd rather be with girls than boys. i was
a tomboy and hated barbies, played with my brother's toys, but so did my
childhood best friend, who is now happily married.

i had the barbies and the tonkas, the dresses and the torn up jeans.  if
i remember right, i was quite a little priss when i wasn't out in the
mud at the far side of the playground with boys i don't even remember.
i also spent a lot of time by myself.  the girls and i just didn't get
along so well...it wasn't that i was a "tomboy", per se--more like they
were in on some secret that i never quite got.

>i went to all my high school dances - had cute boyfriends that
>were great to me ...

i tried...at thirteen, having the right dress and the right date (i
think at the time that meant just about any date) proved that you were
someone, in a way that straight a's or art projects couldn't.  but i
spent as much time in middle school and high school rejecting the whole
dating scene as i did trying to embrace it...i'm sure, if some people
looked at pictures of me during times at high school, they wouldn't
blink as they labeled me a "dyke."  but my resistance against the whole
hetero-dating scene (and against being a "woman" in general) was as much
a front for feeling like i just couldn't compete with da other chickies
(and a reaction to seeing my mom, at 40, married to my dad, who she
could barely stand to be in the same room with).  i didn't even really
know what "gay" meant.  later, i dated a girl who'd come out when she
was 12 or 13, and it blew me away that there was this whole other
option, this way of being that i hadn't even fathomed earlier on.

>so here's a question.  when i saw a psychologist about this whole mess,
she said all this happened because i was so completely open-minded.
>prior, i had seen a psychiatrist who said he thought that gay people
>never grew up.

he what?  dear goodness...sounds like he's got a few issues to work
through himself.  i'm sure there are a lot of phases that i never worked
through, but being gay isn't one of them...actually, when i was younger
(like grade school), i never really had a problem with guys.  it wasn't
until later on, when "boys" became this scary presence who could do
nasty things to women, that i started actively disliking men (and
apologies to all the guys on the list, because i still feel this more
y'all probably deserve).

no, hon...gayness isn't a toy in the sand box that you forgot to put
away...and bi-ness doesn't mean you're confused.  it just means you're
human.

peace y'all,
shelley

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 10:33:06 -0700
reply-to:     carol benwell <cebenwel@apollogrp.edu>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         carol benwell <cebenwel@apollogrp.edu>
subject:      nigc: response to ron
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i can't help but add my 2 cents on ron's "analysis" of sexual orientation.
how arrogant! "statements like 'i always knew i was different but i didn't
know what it was until later on in life' are reconstructive
rationalizations." no, ron, they might be retrospective, but they are not
reconstructed.
aside from its pompous tone ("personal anecdotes aren't proof of anything
except that person's perception and interpretation of events." -- duh), his
opinion shows a rather obvious split personality itself. after the
"scientific" pronouncements, breaking down issues of human attachment into
bits of stimulus-response, cause-effect, prediction-result, voila!
---strangely, then ron oh-so-smugly describes his attitude toward others:
" i have very contradictory feelings towards people, but i don't worry about
which feeling i'm 'supposed to' have about someone.  i just feel what i feel
and let it be."
ha, ha, ha.
so do we, ron. if you would only give us the right to do the same.

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date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 13:21:50 est
reply-to:     rainnriver@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         "<sarah t. rosenblum>" <rainnriver@aol.com>
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>>prior, i had seen a psychiatrist who said he thought that gay people
never grew up.  i know i'm not being as technical, but he explained
something about child-development - you know, like how 'normal' girls
are all, "boys have cooties" until they hit puberty, and then, they
become interested.  he said gayness was just when children never grow
out of that phase.  what do ya'll think about that?  valid? ludicrous?

it seems probable that the psychiatrist in question subscribed to freud's
theories, one of which says that homosexuality results from getting stuck in
one of the stages of development outlined by freud. my personal opinion?
although freud set the groundwork for lot's of important stuff in the field of
psychology, his work was based on a very small amount of case studies, his own
personal ideas, and not much that is scientifically valid. also, he studied
men and then applied what he 'learned' to women.

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date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 10:26:39 -0800
reply-to:     dannette <vvess@yahoo.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         dannette <vvess@yahoo.com>
subject:      nigc: sexuality (really long)
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this whole message is coming from my soapbox, so be warned....:)

> why are two women more acceptable than two men?  um.  i think it
> primarily has to do with the physical acts being performed.  two women
> aren't ever doing anything more than mutual masturbation whereas men
are
> redefining the use of an orifice that wasn't designed for sex.  it is
> not a part of the fundamental male psyche to be penetrated.  a man has
> to do some serious reorientation of his psyche to decide that
> penetration is a good thing.

hey, did you know that about the same percentages of gay male couples
as heterosexual couples have anal sex? i fail to see why these same
people have such a problem with gay male sex. see, that's what a lot
of people fail to take into account--they act like straight people
don't do it, and that's bull. cause if straight people do it, then it
can't just be the physical acts performed.

you can't say that "it is not a part of the fundamental male psyche to
be penetrated." well, okay, you can, but you have absolutely no
logical basis on which to base that. maybe it's not a part of your
fundamental psyche, but (see below for more arguments of this type)
who are you to say what another man starts out with in his mind? you
have no way of knowing that.

i think, personal opinion again, that it has more to do with the
social implications of what is being done to whom than just what is
being done, because, as i said above, straights have anal sex as well.
in biblical times, and one of the reasons male homosexuality is
forbidden in the bible, men with their higher social status did not
have sex with women; they did sex to women. it wasn't (usually)
lovemaking (remember, these are most often arranged marriages, and
most often the participants did not love each other); it was
childmaking. children and alliances were the sole purposes of
marriage. with that in mind, when a male penetrated another male, it
was humiliating, lowering the penetrated to the status of a woman.
when kingdoms were invaded and taken over, members of the invading
army would rape the king of the invaded country, as a way of showing
that he was completely humiliated and had no worth whatsoever.

of course, we know better now. women and men are perfectly equal, so
we don't have anything to base fear of male homosexuality on, right?
unfortunately, no. when gay men and lesbians are equally tolerated (or
equally not tolerated, depending on how you look at it), then we will
know that sexism is dead.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

on the subject of choice: who am i to say that my experience is more
valid than another's, when we both deal with the same thing? a woman i
talked to a few times believes that it's a choice. i asked her when
she chose to be a lesbian, and i guess she thought i was just being
argumentative, but i really wanted to know. i'd never heard any gay or
bisexual person say it was a choice before, and i was curious.

i think, personal opinion here, in order to have the possibility of a
choice, you have to have potential to be attracted to both genders.
that means bisexuality to some degree.

for some people it's a choice, for others it isn't. it can't be a
choice if you knew you liked the same sex before you knew of anyone
else who did, because the choice just isn't there until you find out
about it. it can be a choice if you are open minded enough. me, i
don't understand how anyone can choose to be attracted to anyone; in
my experience it just happens, you meet somebody or look at somebody
and you think, wow. or hey baby. or whatever. i guess some people have
the control to choose what they want to feel towards people.

wish i was that lucky. :)

dannette
==
"as you walk the path of life, you're going to have plenty of
opportunities to keep your mouth shut. take advantage of them."
--anon.
_________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 10:57:01 -0800
reply-to:     lisa <lisagallo@yahoo.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         lisa <lisagallo@yahoo.com>
subject:      nigc: sexuality discussion
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one night, a couple of years ago, i was out with two of my friends
from work, ben and jim, who both identify themselves as gay.  we were
drinking at bar called, appropriately enough, emily's, in downtown
boston.  we somehow got into a conversation about who or what is
attractive to each of us and how we viewed ourselves in comparison to
how others view us.  it started when ben made a comment about a woman
who had been literally throwing herself at him, not knowing he was
gay.  he said something about it being a long time since someone found
him attractive, and jim and i looked at each other in amazement,
telling ben just about everyone we worked with - the two of us
included - had crushes on him!  it was kind of funny, because we
actually all had crushes on each other, but unfortunately, i was the
odd "man" out in this triangle.  anyway, i asked each of them how they
identified themselves, and they each said gay, though
they have been both attracted to and involved with women in the past.
they asked me what i called  myself, and i said straight, because i
have thus far only been attracted to and involved with men.  i said,
yeah, the thought of "experimenting" had definitely crossed my mind,
but i wouldn't do it just for the sake of doing it.  (keep in mind,
though, that i am far from a sexually casual person - 3 lovers in 27
years... that may be too much information, but hey, we're intimate
strangers, right?)  i hoped, though, that i was open-minded enough to
explore the possibility if i ever found myself attracted to a woman
who returned the sentiment.

this thread has been very interesting and open-minded (at least for
the most part) and i appreciate that. for me, the issue is less about
the "sexual" aspect and more about love.  i know, idealistic and
romantic, but i can't help it.  the way i see it, if you are lucky
enough to find someone to love, and that same someone loves you back,
you have something precious and unique, and no one anywhere has any
right to say whether you are wrong, or sinful, or evil, or
psychologically impaired.  (okay, if the person is a serial killer or
the unabomber or something, you may want to seek counseling of some
kind, but i don't think too many of us are going to this extreme.)
ironically, for me, i have this bad habit of falling for gay men.  in
fact, the aforementioned jim said once that i must be a gay man
trapped in a woman's body!  ;)  i recently - about three months ago -
had to walk away from my "best friend", a man i'd met and become very
close to emotionally and physically (there was lots of
cuddling and kissing and sleeping, but no sex).  he waited six months
before telling me he was gay.  at first i was supportive, telling him
i loved him no matter what.  then i was angry, because i felt like he
lied to me.  then i was depressed, because i was totally in love - for
only the second time in my life - with a man i could never completely
have.  the strangest part was we *did* get involved sexually - albeit
briefly - after he came out to me.  he had taken down the last wall
between us, and i think he really wanted to be with me; he needed to
sort of try it on, see what he felt.  he told me once he had never
felt about another woman the way he felt about me, and i believe him.
i felt like a failure walking away from him, but after two years of
trying, it hurt me too much to be near him and know that i couldn't
have the relationship i wanted with him, and i had begun
punishing him for not "wanting" to be with me.

my point here is i had no control over loving him.  was i "born" this
way?  did i "choose" this?  can i alter my existence and forget this
was ever a part of my life?  the answer to all of these questions is
no.  it just was.  it just is.  we learn to accept life and who we are
and learn to live within the parameters set by the circumstances
beyond our control, and with any luck we will lead happy, comfortable
lives filled with laughter and love.

no one can argue with wanting that.

peace.
_________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 13:04:41 -0600
reply-to:     joan morrison <morrison_joan@webtv.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         joan morrison <morrison_joan@webtv.net>
subject:      ig background music ;)
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songs that would be good to make love to?  hmm...let's see   well, for
starters, i would say these (more for the music and mood than the
lyrics):

down by the river
hand me downs
shed your skin
scooter boys
everything in its own time
caramia
kid fears
strange fire
blood quantum
tangled up in blue
gethsemane (from jcs)
ghost
dead man's hill
ballad of squeaky fromme
go

what a thought-provoking thread!

peace,

joan :-d

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 14:04:30 -0500
reply-to:     rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
subject:      re: nigc - the sex/orientation discussion continues
x-to:         shelley miller <strange_fire66@hotmail.com>
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well said darlin well said.....*clapping quietly and nodding her head with
agreement and pride*

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
peace love and light

beccie lyon
remember.........
"i'm going to love you good and strong while our love is good and young"
indigo girls.....shaming of the sun....get out the map

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date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 14:14:52 -0500
reply-to:     sarah pinsker <spinsker@goucher.edu>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         sarah pinsker <spinsker@goucher.edu>
subject:      michelle malone stars
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i think thats how they're billed on her new live ep - they were selling it
at the show on sunday night- i think its only available at shows and over
the net right now. by the way, thanks to everybody who made standing in line
all day fun (i've never...played party games in line before) and interesting
and filling (i've never...had pumpkin pie while waiting in line before. the
show was incredible- i couldn't even begin to review it.

sarah
ps- a trivia question that i don't know the answer to: are there any shows
that used ig as part of the soundtrack of an episode? the only one i could
think of was 21 jump street, which used kid fears and/or prince of darkness
in one episode (i can't remember which- it was at least nine years ago, so
cut me some slack :)

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 14:25:46 est
reply-to:     lythande99@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         "timothy j. baldwin" <lythande99@aol.com>
subject:      re: nigc: sexuality discussion
x-to:         lisagallo@yahoo.com
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in a message dated 98-12-30 14:18:49 est, lisagallo@yahoo.com writes:

<< the way i see it, if you are lucky enough to find someone to love, and that
same someone loves you back, you have something precious and unique, and no
one anywhere has any right to say whether you are wrong, or sinful, or evil,
or psychologically impaired. >>

wouldn't this be a much better world if kids were raised with this attitude
instead of fear and hatred????

peace,
tim

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date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 14:18:46 -0500
reply-to:     rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
subject:      re: ig background music ;)
x-to:         joan morrison <morrison_joan@webtv.net>
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wow, that was a very interesting list.....hmmmmm  wondering.....maybe a new
boot tape compilation is in the works here...hmmmmmmm.......we could call it
the sexual healing boot what do you guys think?

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
peace love and light

beccie lyon
remember.........
"i'm going to love you good and strong while our love is good and young"
indigo girls.....shaming of the sun....get out the map

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date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 13:59:01 -0500
reply-to:     rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
subject:      re: nigc - the sex/orientation discussion continues
x-to:         "lane, tara e." <telane@trigon.com>
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tara,
first of all, i dont agree with the shrink who says that gay people just
have never grown up...sorry, i just dont buy it...and secondly kudos to
you....you seem to have really gotten it together if you have figured out
that it is your heart that matters not what is between the person's legs of
who your are dating(god that was a long sentence) ......you have it all when
you stay true to yourself...yes, i'm a lesbian, but i am not prejudice of
people who aren't gay...i just feel that we should love people for who they
are not what they are...
come one people now,
smile on your brother
everybody get together,
try to love one another right now.....
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
peace love and light

beccie lyon
remember.........
"i'm going to love you good and strong while our love is good and young"
indigo girls.....shaming of the sun....get out the map

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date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 12:44:03 est
reply-to:     sylcat79@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         mary beth sylvester <sylcat79@aol.com>
subject:      the cooties crisis  :o)
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hey y'all--

i just want to drop a quick response to the post about the doctor who thinks
gay people never grew up.  maybe this will explain things: i think men are
beautiful, insightful, caring, strong, and witty creatures.  i *laughing while
writing this* do not believe that they have cooties.  some of my closest
friends are male, and it's not for a lack of having female friends.  i would
go stark raving mad if i did not have at least some men in my life, facing an
estrogen overload is my personal nightmare.  ;o)  that said, i don't have the
physical and romantic attraction for men that i do for women.  it just doesn't
exist.  i appreciate men, as adults, and as an adult, but i prefer women as
romantic partners.  that simple.  :o)


;o),
sly.

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date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 14:35:22 -0500
reply-to:     elaine bean <efbean@erols.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         elaine bean <efbean@erols.com>
subject:      re: nigc - the sex/orientation discussion continues
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shelley miller wrote:

>  . . . and it blew me away that there was this whole other
> option, this way of being that i hadn't even fathomed earlier on.

this about sums up why i took so many detours on the road to self
discovery :)  i didn't even think that any other option besides meeting
a man, marriage, etc. was available to me.  totally oblivious to it.
it's so hard to try to explain this in any kind of terms that make sense
- i mean, i certainly was aware that the gay lifestyle existed - but for
me, i just didn't even think that it was an option - i'm not making
sense at all, i know.  was i in denial?  probably.  to me, it's
pointless to try to identify why i did what i did - it happened, it's
history, and now i'm where i want to be.   even in spite of a strong
attraction to women and the brief affair i had in college with a woman ,
it just didn't click for me.  i chalked my feelings up to "a phase" i
was going thru.  hell, it was only after two dismal marriages to men and
one long term affair with a woman that i secretly had while i was
married did i finally come to terms with my gayness.  was this a choice?
i don't think so - it just took me way longer than most people to
realize that i've always been gay, and to act on it and be happy.

elaine

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date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 13:42:55 est
reply-to:     lythande99@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         "timothy j. baldwin" <lythande99@aol.com>
subject:      re: nigc - the sex/orientation discussion continues
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in a message dated 98-12-30 11:08:42 est, telane@trigon.com writes:

<< upon lots of analysis, i just decided that no labels
fit me, and that i just love people as individuals, not genders. >>

thank you, tara.....

you know, i knew i was "different" somewhere around the age of 5 too, but i
didn't know what to call it.....maybe it was because it was the neighborhood
girls who kept beating me up......

my need for sympathy and understanding at home were meant by admonishments to
"stand up and fight like a man".....whatever that means.....

around the age of 11 or so, i began to be bothered by "impure
thoughts".....the next dozen years were a time of intense inner conflict and
emotional turmoil.....in time, i became adept at hiding one side of my
personality.....but only on the surface.....

the only way i could voice the pain inside me was through music.....the guitar
became my true voice through which i could express my inner turbulence....

i got married the first time at 23.....to a woman i had known less than a
year.....with disastrous results save for three wonderful sons.....i'm sure
the desire to prove that i "wasn't" gay was a strong motivating factor in what
in hindsight was a rather impetuous decision.....

when the marriage ended, i felt like my entire existence had been
negated.....music and friends got me through one of the blackest periods of my
life.....one friend in particular.....a woman who considered herself a
lesbian....provided the emotional support that i desperately needed.....and a
lot of education......the effect on my life continues to this day......

a year ago i went through an intense period of self-examination and self-
realization which has enabled to me to reach even further inside myself to
reach depths of creativity i never considered possible.....and i've realized
just how much damage labels do.....

i'm reminded of a song by a albert hammond that was once recorded by the
hollies, called names, tags, numbers and labels......

other people tell us what we are
we believe them as a rule
while my name for you is beautiful
your name for me is fool

it took me a lot more years than tara to reach the same conclusion.....

peace, love and harmony....
tim

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 11:25:11 -0800
reply-to:     dannette <vvess@yahoo.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         dannette <vvess@yahoo.com>
subject:      answers to assorted list topics (long again)
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i'm really sorry about the length of this one and my previous post?
email? but i don't talk much so please forgive me...

> from:    diane wong <arle@hotmail.com>

<snip>

> i have been to a grand total of three indigo girls concerts. he hee!
> 1. june 27, 1998 - lilith fair, rose bowl, pasadena, ca
> 2. august 27, 1998 - suffragette session, park west, chicago, il
> 3. august 28, 1998 - suffragette session, park west, chicago, il
>
> best concert: #3 - 'cause it was so intimate, diverse, and i went wild
> hearing the upbeat tempo version of power of two! woohoo!

i've been to three ig shows, the first lilith fair in 97, a show in
chicago at the rosemont maybe in october or november or something in
97 and the first sst in 98 in chicago. lilith was cool, and i met my
girlfriend the day afterwards. i was wearing my lilith fair shirt at
my friends' hangout, and she came up and started asking me questions
about it. i went to the rosemont show with a bunch of friends,
including my girlfriend who was not then my girlfriend, and everybody
thought we were going to hook up that night but we didn't.

i would've gone to the second sst in chicago but i had to work that
night. that rockin' version of power of two was awesome. btw, anyone
else who was at that show might have noticed a 17-year-old friend of
mine who was screaming for more ig, so much so that her voice died and
she was left with kindofa hoarse screeching. we were about four feet
from the stage, a bit to the left facing the stage. my then good
friend who is now my girlfriend came up for that show, for a week, and
because of that week we got together (finally!) and she came up here
again (she was living with her parents in texas) to stay, to be with
me, hopefully and knock on wood, forever. thanks a&e!!!

i got into ig by hearing closer to fine on the radio, wxrt in chicago.
then it was galileo, and by that time i was old enough and had the
money to get the cds, and the rest, as they say, is herstory....

y'know i said a lot about the queer thing but i didn't say anything
about my personal experience...i usually figure that my experience
won't mean much to anybody else, cause "the lessons i've learned won't
do you any good, you've got to get burned", right? but so many people
are saying so much stuff about it that, well, i just can't resist
putting myself on the spot (i'm a leo after all)....

i am not a tomboy, i played with barbies and no, barbie and midge did
*not* go on dates together (read ellen orleans' "who cares if it's a
choice?" for the reference, it's in the flow charts), i played soccer
but i wasn't aggressive enough and kept getting the ball in my
face--in my glasses no less, ouch. i like wearing dresses (as long as
i'm not going to be doing something that they get in the way of). i
wear makeup on special occasions. i play piano (not guitar, though i
want to learn) and i used to play violin, and i was in choir--but give
me a break here, i'm an alto. (well, okay, i *was* a soprano--first
soprano, top of the scale--but i got bronchitis and didn't sing for
two months and became an alto.) so that's one thing that points me
toward the stereotypical deep-voiced dyke. i do have a deeper voice
than many women.

i completely denied my attraction to women until i was in junior year
of high school. then i accepted it and said, okay, i'm *bi*. i'm not
gay, i'll be alone for the rest of my life, i'm *bi*. (i didn't know
that half my friends were gay or bi (duh!). to this day my gaydar is
broken.) then i got a new boyfriend and forgot about it. two months
away from the end of my senior year i came out to a few of my friends,
and in the subsequent year i: began to identify as a lesbian, met my
current girlfriend who promptly developed a huge crush on me, had my
last and most painful relationship with a guy, and had three
relationships with women, two jokes and the third a serious
relationship that died slowly and painfully--and i did all of that in
that order exactly.

not the most exciting coming out story, but it belongs to me.

dannette
_________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 14:11:26 est
reply-to:     rainnriver@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         "<sarah t. rosenblum>" <rainnriver@aol.com>
subject:      blush inducing thread
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i'd have to say hand me downs and touch me fall.

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 15:15:50 -0500
reply-to:     mcunningham5@earthlink.net
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         michael cunningham <mcunningham5@earthlink.net>
subject:      happy thoughts for new year's!!! (sigc)
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hkf's,
just a quick note to let all you intimate strangers out there to have safe
and happy new years!!!  even if we get caught up in the whirl and the twirl
of it all, remember we are fortunate ones and to thank the lord there's
people out there like you!!!!!
8-)
a+e=ig
8-)

we swore to ourselves
we'd go to the end of the world
but i got caught up in the whirl
and the twirl of it all
a day in the sun
dancing alone
baby i'm so sorry
now it's coming to you
the lessons i've learned
won't do you any good
you've got to get burned
well the curse and the blessing
they're one in the same
baby it's all
such a treacherous gain
hide yourself for me
i said hide yourself for me
all for me
i stood without clothes
danced in the sand
i was aching with freedom
and kissing the damned
i said remember this
as how it should be
oh baby i said
it's all in our hands
got to learn to respect
what we don't understand
we are fortunate ones
fortunate ones
i swear

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 15:04:27 -0500
reply-to:     rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
subject:      re: nigc - the sex/orientation discussion continues
x-to:         lythande99@aol.com
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tim darlin you always make me smile........  big ol one on my face
now.......

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
peace love and light

beccie lyon
remember.........
"i'm going to love you good and strong while our love is good and young"
indigo girls.....shaming of the sun....get out the map

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 15:10:36 est
reply-to:     heidid4660@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         heidi duncanson <heidid4660@aol.com>
subject:      re: ig background music ;)
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in a message dated 12/30/98 2:34:29 pm, morrison_joan@webtv.net wrote:

>songs that would be good to make love to?

there are so many inspiring songs to choose from, but doesn't anyone have the
problem that i do?  i get started singing along and i can't stop ... kinda
distracting for my spouse!  maybe if the girls could record some
instrumentals, their music would work better in the bedroom for me.  ;-)

confessing weird things on the net,

heidi

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 15:11:57 -0500
reply-to:     rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
subject:      just me being silly again but i did it!!!!
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hey all,
guess what guys i finally finished my afghan for amy and am sending it out
this afternoon to the fan club.......i am nervous about sending it but i
wanted to make something for her that reflected the warm and fuzzy feelings
that she has given my over the year (and of course it would cost me a
fortune to mail myself to the fan club tee hee  now dont tell me none of you
have ever though about it..come on i know you have..fess up)  anyway.....i
am starting one for emily tonight, picked out a pretty granny square one for
her, amy's is a ripple afghan that reminds me of red beans and rice...dont
ask it just does.... oh well nuff said......feeling silly but free......

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
peace love and light

beccie lyon
remember.........
"i'm going to love you good and strong while our love is good and young"
indigo girls.....shaming of the sun....get out the map

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 15:14:01 -0500
reply-to:     rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
subject:      re: ig background music ;)
x-to:         heidid4660@aol.com
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man this thread has had me laughing all morning....you guys are great!!!!
have a happy new year and hey darlin, i'm sure that the local karioki shop
has the instrumental music for you if you wanted......

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
peace love and light

beccie lyon
remember.........
"i'm going to love you good and strong while our love is good and young"
indigo girls.....shaming of the sun....get out the map

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 15:26:24 -0500
reply-to:     "lane, tara e." <telane@trigon.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         "lane, tara e." <telane@trigon.com>
subject:      re: ig background music ;)
mime-version: 1.0
content-type: text/plain

ha!! lmao! - actually i think i could never listen to ig while making
love - i'd be too busy listening to focus on anything else!! lol.

---------------------------
> there are so many inspiring songs to choose from, but doesn't anyone
> have the
> problem that i do?  i get started singing along and i can't stop ...
> kinda
> distracting for my spouse!  maybe if the girls could record some
> instrumentals, their music would work better in the bedroom for me.
> ;-)
        ---------------------------------------

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 12:44:09 -0800
reply-to:     dannette <vvess@yahoo.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         dannette <vvess@yahoo.com>
subject:      nigc: wow, i'm being awfully talkative today...
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shelly (i think) said:

> i had the barbies and the tonkas, the dresses and the torn up jeans.

<snip>

> i also spent a lot of time by myself.  the girls and i just didn't get
> along so well...it wasn't that i was a "tomboy", per se--more like
they
> were in on some secret that i never quite got.

my jeans never got all that torn up, but that bit about the secret i
never quite got makes perfect sense. that's why i was teased so much.
i have no sense of style or fashion whatsoever--i can't even tell if
colors match! i never wore the right things and i didn't understand
what was wrong with what i was wearing. not only that, but i never
developed that social sense that tells you when to say what you're
thinking and when to shut up, so i am constantly trying to talk around
my foot. i mean, i don't even bother to try to get it out of my mouth
cause the only thing that accomplishes is it makes room for the other
one! <thunk> it's like, dude! what'd i miss? or even worse, why the
hell did i say that??? why did i laugh at that, it wasn't funny! why
do i constantly say the exact opposite of what i mean?

okay, i wasn't *trying* to bitch all that much, just trying to get a
point across and hoping that i won't eat my foot in the process....

about the doctor who says gay people never grew up: that is a
heterosexual-centric viewpoint, an illogical statement because
homosexuality is an attraction for the same sex, not a lack of
attraction for the opposite, and just plain bulls*** because, well,
okay personal opinion and speaking for others and everything but any
gay person can tell you that's not how it is, it goes so completely
against everything we know about ourselves and why we love the people
we love. and last but definitely not least, how the hell would he
know? assuming he's straight, of course.

elaine (again, i think) said,

> i didn't even think that any other option besides meeting
> a man, marriage, etc. was available to me.  totally oblivious to it.
> it's so hard to try to explain this in any kind of terms that make
sense
> - i mean, i certainly was aware that the gay lifestyle existed - but
for
> me, i just didn't even think that it was an option - i'm not making
> sense at all, i know.

actually, you make perfect sense to me, cause that's exactly what i
did. i knew about it, peripherially (sp?) but no, that's not me, i
can't "be like that". i was under no illusions, had no stereotypes,
just the definitions: lesbians are women who are attracted to other
women, and i don't know any. head in the sand, totally. as i said
before, half my friends were either gay or bi. i've always been
oblivious to the obvious. a friend once kissed me on the cheek while i
was still in the closet and my reaction was so well-ingrained that
when i came out to her at the end of my senior year she was surprised,
recalling that incident. not that people aren't usually surprised to
find out i'm gay (i look like a straight christian girl-next-door,
nonsmoker of any materials, perfectly innocent. i want that keychain
that says "i only look sweet and innocent". i'm not innocent, i'm
naive, oblivious. there's a difference).

dannette
==
"as you walk the path of life, you're going to have plenty of
opportunities to keep your mouth shut. take advantage of them."
--anon.
_________________________________________________________
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get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 13:38:19 pst
reply-to:     julie <mememi@excite.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         julie <mememi@excite.com>
subject:      re: ig sex  ;o)
mime-version: 1.0
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  i think the entire sots album is fitting
> background music, particularly 'shed your skin' for fast-paced fun.

oooooooooooo!!! shed your skin.


_______________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 16:19:54 +0000
reply-to:     j lucero <jlucero@mail.monmouth.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         j lucero <jlucero@mail.monmouth.com>
subject:      nigc:  sexuality discussion
mime-version: 1.0
content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

        hi folks,

        it's good to see so many people taking the time during the hectic holiday
season to share their views, opinions, and experiences on such an
interesting topic.

        however, i think it's time to take it completely off the list and continue
the discussion via private email or other alternative forums.

        thanks and have a very happy new year!

                        jen

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 18:11:27 -0500
reply-to:     bethany ward <bethany_ward@email.msn.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         bethany ward <bethany_ward@email.msn.com>
subject:      re: attn missy singhaus
x-to:         julie <mememi@excite.com>

please pardon the public broadcast but missy singhaus please email me
immediately

--bethany
-----original message-----
from: julie <mememi@excite.com>
to: indigo-girls@netspace.org <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
date: wednesday, december 30, 1998 4:39 pm
subject: re: ig sex ;o)


>  i think the entire sots album is fitting
>> background music, particularly 'shed your skin' for fast-paced fun.
>
>oooooooooooo!!! shed your skin.
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________________
>get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/
>
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>please do not send long non-indigo girls-related forwards to the list.
>indigo girls faq and indigo girls mailing list faq:
> http://www.fl.net.au/~sherlyn/ig

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 18:38:00 est
reply-to:     ndgogrrrrl@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         digest anonymous <ndgogrrrrl@aol.com>
subject:      nigc: happy songs list
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my cousin is in the hospital right now and needs some cheering up and i
thought i would make her a tape of happy indigo girls songs.....email me
privately with the songs that you think are the happiest :)
thanks y'all
-ndgo

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 18:46:29 est
reply-to:     lythande99@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         "timothy j. baldwin" <lythande99@aol.com>
subject:      re: nigc:  sexuality discussion
x-to:         jlucero@mail.monmouth.com
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in a message dated 98-12-30 17:59:28 est, jlucero@mail.monmouth.com writes:

<< it's good to see so many people taking the time during the hectic holiday
season to share their views, opinions, and experiences on such an
interesting topic.

         however, i think it's time to take it completely off the list and
continue
the discussion via private email or other alternative forums. >>

hey y'all.....

i'd like to thank everyone who contributed to this recent
discussion.....regardless of the viewpoint expressed.....the diverse responses
made for an extremely interesting discussion.....and it was great on my part
to make tha acquaintance of several new listees.....

i'd like to invite anyone interested in continuing the topic or any other ig
tangent to join us on the "other" ig list as well......you can sign up at:

http://www.egroups.com/list/indigogirls

wishing you all the best of everything in the new year.....

peace, love, and harmony....
tim

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 19:09:02 -0500
reply-to:     ron mcbay <usul@mindspring.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         ron mcbay <usul@mindspring.com>
subject:      re: michelle malone stars
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>from: sarah pinsker <spinsker@goucher.edu>
>
>her new live ep - they were selling it
>at the show on sunday night- i think its only available at shows and
over
>the net right now.

oh.  i thought that was a michelle malone cd.  if i had realized it was
this new group, i'd have taken a look.

are they writing new material as a group, or are they covering previous
songs by the individual members?

ron
--
ron mcbay                | let the man whose words ring true
usul@mindspring.com      | speak on up til his voice breaks through
www.mindspring.com/~usul |  the silence.
       /hoops.html       |
       /billy-bragg.html | -- "today (watch me shine)"
       /view.html        |     everlast

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 19:02:29 est
reply-to:     wishmonstr@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         "e. moranian bolles, the badass lchrn lassie" <wishmonstr@aol.com>
subject:      indigos in the background...
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well, isn't this an interesting thread...
     as with any "best ig song" related question, i'm gonna have to go with
chickenman!!! ( =) ) -- but specifically a live version with a really long soc
attached.  pretending for a moment to be slightly more *normal* person, i'd
have to go with either mystery or romeo & juliet.

and just 'cause i'm here: i think that psychologist's point loses credibility
the second you come across a 10 year old who knows they're gay (a friend of
mine has been coming out since she was 11).  children aren't gay until they
hit puberty -- god, my seven year old sister is walking proof of that!

~ elizabeth

**********************
"you know?  me and antonin, like peas in a pod!  but me and igor ... it's just
not happening."

i can appreciate the classics!
**********************

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 19:05:42 est
reply-to:     abbett@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         amanda abbett <abbett@aol.com>
subject:      re: nigc: sexuality
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>  > why are two women more acceptable than two men?  um.  i think it
>  > primarily has to do with the physical acts being performed.  two women
>  > aren't ever doing anything more than mutual masturbation whereas men
>  are
>  > redefining the use of an orifice that wasn't designed for sex.  it is
>  > not a part of the fundamental male psyche to be penetrated.  a man has
>  > to do some serious reorientation of his psyche to decide that
>  > penetration is a good thing.

ok, i had quite a light-bulb flash on this one here.........i don't
necessarily agree that it's not part of the fundamental male psyche to be
penetrated......or i at least wonder about it...........because, being a
lesbian, i'll have to say that i've always wanted to penetrate as much as be
penetrated..........as many lesbians do.  the whole strap-on issue comes up
here.........strap-ons are popular gadgets, and it stems to reason that if
this many women have this fantasy or as part of their psyche to penetrate,
that just as many men would have similar fantasies of being penetrated.  does
that make sense???

and in case anybody cares to know out there.  i always felt different from
high school on, but didn't realize fully about my sexuality until i was 25 (2
years ago).  and when i confronted the possibility, it was like, "oh yeah!!!,
that's what it is!!"  and in that instant, i was free and most of my earlier
questions about myself were there and then answered.  no more looking back.  i
told my family about my realization before i had even dated a girl, kissed a
girl, held hands with a girl or anything.  i was so confident in my
realization.  it's not been a pretty sight with them, but at least i am happy
now and at least i now know who i am.  and i don't have to hide behind any
walls or make excuses for anything!  i'm a free woman!  :)  i think i had some
issues with men in regards to sexuality that helped to keep me at bay from
them..........and, ironically, being intimate with women has freed up my
sexual fears and i think now i could enjoy and relish in a sexual relationship
with a man........a totally physical one........but that's where it'd end for
me.  only women can captivate my emotions and my heart and consume my
thoughts.........i feel safe with women and i feel understood and i feel known
and i feel comfortable...........all these things i have never been able to
feel with a man.

while we are on this subject, i'd like to add here that i am one of the few
and lucky women who has found love with someone else on this list.  and for
that i will always be indebted to this list.  it brings lots of different
people together.  and i want to tell her, if she's reading this, that i love
her very much.

peace brothers and sisters!
amanda

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 19:09:21 -0500
reply-to:     sarah brady <sbrady1@email.unc.edu>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         sarah brady <sbrady1@email.unc.edu>
subject:      igc..i know this much is true..
mime-version: 1.0
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has anyone out there read "i know this much is true" by wally lamb?!
on page 58, the main character is looking into his ex-wife's truck, and it
says :
"inside on the dashboard was a pair of women's sunglasses, an indigo girls
cassette, and a grungy-looking coffee mug"!!!!!
:)
im not sure the next 800 pages can live up to the excitement found on page
58...
i just had to share w/someone, my mom has already been on my case today
about my little obsession..she doesnt understand...

much love to all
-sarah.


_______________________________________________________________________________

  a&e  "i will walk down the street. i will hold my head high. i will say
   #    hello to everyone i meet. i will have love in my heart.  when i
   #    have hate, i will turn my hate into energy. and when i have anger,
  _#_   i will turn my anger into energy. when i am negative, i will be
( # )  negative only for as long as i need to be, until i understand it
/ o \  and then i will be positive. and i will not be complacent. and i
( === ) will not be complacent. and i will not be a racist. and i will not
'---'  a sexist. and i will not be a homophobic asshole. and i will love.
and i will love. and i will be happy that i am alive."  -amy ray

______________________________________________________________________________

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 19:10:46 est
reply-to:     dorothy001@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         dorothy001@aol.com
subject:      ig singles
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now we all know a couple of new songs that ig have for their new album, i
wonder which one will be a single? for the past they usually have more upbeat,
and more "pop-like" songs, ie gaileo, shame on you, even though i think
language or the kiss, fugitive....etc are better songs. so i think out of the
ones we've heard of, gone again will probably have the best chance to be a
singel, what do you all think?

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 19:14:37 est
reply-to:     rainnriver@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         "<sarah t. rosenblum>" <rainnriver@aol.com>
subject:      blushing again
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one more--
for some odd reason, "don't give that girl a gun," i know it's a break up song
and it's not that i have gun related sexual fantasies but....maybe it's just
the intensity of amy's voice.

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 19:16:28 est
reply-to:     rainnriver@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         "<sarah t. rosenblum>" <rainnriver@aol.com>
subject:      no subject
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there's a picture of ig in the most recent issue of "the advocate."

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 16:37:58 pst
reply-to:     sara kitchen <sara62@hotmail.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         sara kitchen <sara62@hotmail.com>
subject:      sex
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i would have to say caramia from 12o'clock.  i just love the first part,
so smooth and then it builds


peace

sara

______________________________________________________
get your private, free email at http://www.hotmail.com

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 19:38:02 -0800
reply-to:     melissa singhaus <msinghaus@msmisp.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         melissa singhaus <msinghaus@msmisp.com>
subject:      anyone that recently got tapes from me was any of them blank?
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i try very hard not to send blank tapes out, but if i do send a blank one
out let me know. but first try putting the volume up. some of mine have a
very high volume level to go on the tape player to hear them. the ones i
still have to do e-mail me to make sure i haven't misplaced your list. i
know these should have been out months ago, but i do apologia for them not
being. i will not be doing any more. mom and my counselor said no infact
they want me to take down that web page, but i think it is way to cool to.
oh, well i am stuck in the middle after getting caught by an artist or two
and threaten to be turned in. oh, well that is the break. missy

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 20:07:37 est
reply-to:     chance0631@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         chance0631@aol.com
subject:      blushin'
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well, depending on the mood, if it's one of those frenzied sessions where you
just have to have your lover it has to be get out the map.
"i'm going to love you good and strong while our love is good and young"
indigo girls.....shaming of the sun....get out the map
if done right, loving is always good and strong and young  : )
lynn  i like this thread!

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 20:13:55 est
reply-to:     chance0631@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         chance0631@aol.com
subject:      you guys are killin' me
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these recent threads have been wonderful, but.......for all of us who are
still waiting for their ex who they were with for ten years to return because
we believe in forever even after not seeing them for two years, 4 months and 9
days.  you are beating up my heart, but in a good way. keep it up!
lynn

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 20:37:45 est
reply-to:     memememi@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         memememi@aol.com
subject:      re: michelle malone stars
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in a message dated 98-12-30 19:04:22 est, ron mcbay <usul@mindspring.com>
writes:

> oh.  i thought that was a michelle malone cd.  if i had realized it was
>  this new group, i'd have taken a look.
>
>  are they writing new material as a group, or are they covering previous
>  songs by the individual members?

michelle and the malone stars (michael lorant, sheila doyle, gerard mchugh,
and they've just added a bass player, whose name i do not know) have been
playing together for a few months now.  sometimes she will play solo and
sometimes with them.  they are basically playing just michelle's songs,
although they have been known to throw a cover in there every now and them.

and the "lucky to be live" ep that michelle is selling *is* michelle's cd.  it
was recorded at the cotton club in august, at a show where michael, sheila and
gerard were also playing with her.   right now, it's just available at her
shows, but after the new year, it should be available in stores.  it's on the
velvel label.

=)
lisa

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 09:05:09 -0800
reply-to:     bonnie parks <bonster@drizzle.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         bonnie parks <bonster@drizzle.com>
subject:      nigc-listees in buffalo/toronto?
mime-version: 1.0
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a friend and i are visiting buffalo and toronto (over new year's) and are
in need of some suggestions for where to go and what to do (book stores,
record shops, bars (women's), restaurants, etc.)
any thoughts?
anyone care to meet up? we're not homicidal maniacs ;)

bon

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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 30 dec 1998 23:08:56 -0500
reply-to:     sb <sharonb@geocities.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         sb <sharonb@geocities.com>
subject:      ig background music
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ok, i wasn't going to reply to this thread (especially considering my
significant other is a member of this list....) but i just have to.  :-)

my choices for ig "background music" would have to be :

touch me fall
keeper of my heart
everything in it's own time
romeo and juliet

hint, hint honey.... ;-)

take care and happy new year everybody!
sharon

--
"three men in a desert wandering, one is knowing and two are scared.
they say time is in the river, oh but the river is not there.
dry in spirit, dry in body, two will lend themselves to death.
and in grief one weeps into his hands and drinks his bitter tears."

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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 00:18:41 -0500
reply-to:     rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
subject:      re: igc..i know this much is true..
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we all understand darlin....trust me we all understand!!!!!

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
peace love and light

beccie lyon
remember.........
"i'm going to love you good and strong while our love is good and young"
indigo girls.....shaming of the sun....get out the map

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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 00:21:11 -0500
reply-to:     rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
subject:      re: ig singles
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of course being deprived as i am here i have only heard gone again....i
would hope it gets release...but with the whistle part at the end....i have
heard two versions one with and one with out...and i like the whistle...oh
and by the way if anyone would like to help me out by helping expand my boot
horizon please email me...i am starvin for new stuff..........

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
peace love and light

beccie lyon
remember.........
"i'm going to love you good and strong while our love is good and young"
indigo girls.....shaming of the sun....get out the map

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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 00:24:29 -0500
reply-to:     rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
subject:      re: blushing again
x-to:         rainnriver@aol.com
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content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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stop it you are making me shiver......amy's voice hmmmmmmmmm

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
peace love and light

beccie lyon
remember.........
"i'm going to love you good and strong while our love is good and young"
indigo girls.....shaming of the sun....get out the map

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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 01:06:14 -0500
reply-to:     indigo head <s00.krosenblum@wittenberg.edu>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         indigo head <s00.krosenblum@wittenberg.edu>
subject:      re: <blushing>
in-reply-to:  <19981230174441z70915-16734+547@brimstone.netspace.org>
mime-version: 1.0
content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

in a message dated 98-12-30 00:28:20 est, beccie@websunshine.com writes:

<< hey i got a thread for you....what ig song would you
most like to make love to??? >>

ghost.

there.  that was easy.  :-)

:-) karen

****************************************
pro-child, pro-choice!!!
"unknowing captor, you'll never know how
much you pierce my spirit but i can't
touch you..."
        --indigo girls
"condoms were so like three months ago."
        --jq on maturity
****************************************
http://userpages.wittenberg.edu/s00.krosenblum
ig boots: http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/indigodar

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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 01:01:32 -0500
reply-to:     erica weinstein <eweins1@po-box.mcgill.ca>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         erica weinstein <eweins1@po-box.mcgill.ca>
subject:      midnight ramblings
mime-version: 1.0
content-type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_nextpart_000_0027_01be3459.1b281d20"

this is a multi-part message in mime format.

------=_nextpart_000_0027_01be3459.1b281d20
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        charset="iso-8859-1"
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i don't respond much to this list and sometimes i wonder why i even stay =
on it.  tonight, i realized why.  i was checking my e-mail and after i =
read a very personal message i clicked on an ig digest and the first =
subject was 'blush.'  exactly what my face was doing at that moment.  i =
was in awe.  i feel like through this list i have met people who i can =
really connect with and i don't even know any of you.  so many of the =
topics of discussion are things that run through my head all the time.  =
like ig songs to make love to.  has to be "fugitive."  that song always =
drives me wild.  and the sexuality thing.  it really helps me to read =
the discussion.  i have been struggling with the sexuality thing for a =
long time.  i have no problem with the fact that i dig chicks.  i love =
that part of me and i don't care who knows about it.  my feelings for =
men are almost harder for me.  i had almost given up and decided i was =
just a plain ol' lesbian, and, of course, as soon as i do that i have a =
major crush on a guy.  life can be so confusing.  i have yet to find =
someone of either sex who i am confident i could be in a relationship =
with.  nothing ever works out the way you plan.  i am desperate for =
someone, but i don't know who.  the reason i am writing all this is =
because i feel like i can.  that is why i am on this list.  because many =
of you may delete this message, but lots of people will read it and =
relate.  it makes me feel better when i am feeling low, like on a night =
like tonight, to just write and get it all out.  does anyone else feel =
the same way, or am i totally off my rocker?  i hope everyone is well =
and doesn't stress out about the new year.  goodnight and i wish you all =
sweet indigo dreams.

erica

------=_nextpart_000_0027_01be3459.1b281d20
content-type: text/html;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd w3 html//en">
<html>
<head>

<meta content=3dtext/html;charset=3diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3dcontent-type>
<meta content=3d'"mshtml 4.72.3612.1700"' name=3dgenerator>
</head>
<body bgcolor=3d#ffffff>
<div><font color=3d#000000 size=3d2>i don't respond much to this list =
and sometimes=20
i wonder why i even stay on it.  tonight, i realized why.  i =
was=20
checking my e-mail and after i read a very personal message i clicked on =
an ig=20
digest and the first subject was 'blush.'  exactly what my face was =
doing=20
at that moment.  i was in awe.  i feel like through this list =
i have=20
met people who i can really connect with and i don't even know any of =
you. =20
so many of the topics of discussion are things that run through my head =
all the=20
time.  like ig songs to make love to.  has to be=20
"fugitive."  that song always drives me wild.  and =
the=20
sexuality thing.  it really helps me to read the discussion.  =
i have=20
been struggling with the sexuality thing for a long time.  i have =
no=20
problem with the fact that i dig chicks.  i love that part of me =
and i=20
don't care who knows about it.  my feelings for men are almost =
harder for=20
me.  i had almost given up and decided i was just a plain ol' =
lesbian, and,=20
of course, as soon as i do that i have a major crush on a guy.  =
life can be=20
so confusing.  i have yet to find someone of either sex who i am =
confident=20
i could be in a relationship with.  nothing ever works out the way =
you=20
plan.  i am desperate for someone, but i don't know who.  the =
reason i=20
am writing all this is because i feel like i can.  that is why i am =
on this=20
list.  because many of you may delete this message, but lots of =
people will=20
read it and relate.  it makes me feel better when i am feeling low, =
like on=20
a night like tonight, to just write and get it all out.  does =
anyone else=20
feel the same way, or am i totally off my rocker?  i hope everyone =
is well=20
and doesn't stress out about the new year.  goodnight and i wish =
you all=20
sweet indigo dreams.</font></div>
<div><font color=3d#000000 size=3d2></font> </div>
<div><font color=3d#000000 size=3d2>erica</font></div></body></html>

------=_nextpart_000_0027_01be3459.1b281d20--

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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 01:51:22 est
reply-to:     lythande99@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         "timothy j. baldwin" <lythande99@aol.com>
subject:      re: midnight ramblings
x-to:         eweins1@po-box.mcgill.ca
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in a message dated 98-12-31 01:18:30 est, eweins1@po-box.mcgill.ca writes:

<< the reason i am writing all this is because i feel like i can.  that is why
i am on this list.  because many of you may delete this message, but lots of
people will read it and relate.  it makes me feel better when i am feeling
low, like on a night like tonight, to just write and get it all out.  does
anyone else feel the same way, or am i totally off my rocker? >>

i think that's possibly the most wonderful part of what amy and emily's music
and honesty has done for people like yourself and so many others of us on this
list....the good that these two women have accomplished goes far beyond words
and music and harmonies.....they have most definitely made the world a better
place by their prescence in it.....how many can say that????

the number of new people who joined into the sexuality thread was
amazing.....and i know from my own experience with private email that there
were many others who were touched by the openness and honesty exhibited by so
many of those who did post......i am sure that for every one who had the nerve
or inspiration to post there were 10 or 20 others who drew strength or
consolation from the words they read.....

y'all make me proud to be among ya.....

peace, love, and harmony....
tim

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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 02:12:53 -0500
reply-to:     debbie woodell <woodeld@phillynews.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         debbie woodell <woodeld@phillynews.com>
subject:      happy new year!
mime-version: 1.0
content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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hey, all!
        happy new year!
        you folks have been wonderful in the few months i've been on this list.
after a bit of a wild ride when i first joined, it's turned into a
wonderfully comfortable place to share ideas, thoughts and insights about
the indigo girls, their music and the music of others.
        hope everyone has a wonderful and prosperous new year.
        see you all soon!
peace,
deb

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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 02:13:00 -0500
reply-to:     rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
subject:      re: midnight ramblings
x-to:         lythande99@aol.com
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right back at cha tim darlin....and by the way i am 28 years old now and
feelin much the wiser thanks to you guys ...i love this list.......and amy
and emily...they have touched a part of me that i thought was
unreachable...they always find new places in my soul to make me smile about
and for that i am grateful......the discussions here lately have been
wonderful. and yes i am going to collect the list of songs contributed and
make a tape....the sexual healing boot has begun!!!!!!!!

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
peace love and light

beccie lyon
remember.........
"i'm going to love you good and strong while our love is good and young"
indigo girls.....shaming of the sun....get out the map

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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 02:25:50 -0500
reply-to:     rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         rebecca lyon <beccie@websunshine.com>
subject:      happy birth day to me happy birthday too me happy birth day to
              meeeeee happy bith day to me
mime-version: 1.0
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well guys i am turnin in, you guys be good and take care...happy new year to
those of you going out tomorrow night ...take care and be careful if you are
drivin tomorrow night....i got a new thread for you ...what ig song has made
you laugh the most?   think about it and i will post mine tomorrow night it
is off of a boot and i have to get the case out to find out the
name..something about given a stranger a number....dont remember what it was
called....anyway 1999 will be a wonderful year i can just feel it in my
bones.......

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
peace love and light

beccie lyon
remember.........
"i'm going to love you good and strong while our love is good and young"
indigo girls.....shaming of the sun....get out the map

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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 09:40:17 +0100
reply-to:     kathrin siegmund <kathrin.siegmund@stud.uni-hannover.de>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         kathrin siegmund <kathrin.siegmund@stud.uni-hannover.de>
subject:      where were you...??? pls, read if you want to submit your story

hey kind friends!

i will be temporarily unsubbed from the list:(, since i will be away
over new year's...

so, if you send your where were you stories to the list, i will not
be able to collect 'em and put 'em up on my page eventually.

pls, send the stories at least as a cc to me at
kathrin.siegmund@stud.uni-hannover.de, if you would like your story
to be included in the archive.

thanks for listening:-)!!

everyone pls get well into the new year and have a great 1999!!:))

p.s. claudine, i haven't forgotten about you!! i will write when i
get back asap:), promised.
britta, maike, jules and everyone i am forgetting right now, i will
talk to you soon, see ya!!!:)


peace
and
take care,
kathrin

_____________________________________________
"music is such a good way to resist.
                  it keeps you strong.
                         it has dignity."
                                   - amy ray
_____________________________________________
http://www.stud.uni-hannover.de/user/68800/homepage/indigo/indigo.htm
aol im kathrinig & icq 24857842

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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 03:50:59 -0500
reply-to:     ron mcbay <usul@mindspring.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         ron mcbay <usul@mindspring.com>
subject:      re: michelle malone stars
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>from: memememi@aol.com <memememi@aol.com>
>
>they are basically playing just michelle's songs,
>although they have been known to throw a cover in there every now and
them.

that's too bad.  it's a waste of the assembled talent if all the others
are doing is serving as her backup band.  i'd venture to say that gerard
is the best songwriter of the bunch while michelle is the best musician.
(he's the one who wrote "thin line", if anybody doesn't know.)  when
they do covers, do gerard or michael ever get to sing lead, at least?

ron
--
ron mcbay                | let the man whose words ring true
usul@mindspring.com      | speak on up til his voice breaks through
www.mindspring.com/~usul |  the silence.
       /hoops.html       |
       /billy-bragg.html | -- "today (watch me shine)"
       /view.html        |     everlast

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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 08:12:11 est
reply-to:     chance0631@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         chance0631@aol.com
subject:      igc a little help...
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any listee living near decatur that frequents emily's new place please email
me privately.  thank you in advance.
lynn

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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 01:40:43 pst
reply-to:     ben kerrick <benk_42@hotmail.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         ben kerrick <benk_42@hotmail.com>
subject:      lots o' stuff
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hey all,

i hadn't been able to access my email for the past few days, so i spent
the last hour catching up on everything :) i realize the sexuality
discussion is supposed to be over, but i really wanted to say some
things.

i think it's true that lesbians seem to be more socially accepted than
gay men (at least in some ways). i think this can be traced to the
nature of the different stereotypes: lesbians are stereotypically (big
fat emphasis on this word) more masculine, and gay men are
stereotypically (another big fat emphasis) more effeminate. in this
man's world (it sucks, but that's the way it is), masculine traits are
more respected. so lesbians tend to be more accepted (although
begrudgingly), while men with effeminate traits are looked down upon and
made fun of.

real quick- i definitely feel like my sexuality is something i cannot
change. i tried for 14 months with a girl whose heart i broke. it didn't
work. sexual attraction seems to be such and instinctual, natural
reaction, you know? i can't imagine making a choice to change that, but
i'm just one person.

and that's all i have to say about that.

for background music to making love, i especially like tim's suggestion
of everything in its own time, but i think my top pick would be kid
fears, because michael stipe's voice turns me on so much. actually, most
things about michael stipe turn me on, but that's another
conversation...

does a boot of that dec 27 show exist? if so, i want one really bad. i
would forever be indebted to someone who could get one for me.
please...?

i am continuously overwhelmed by the incredible people on this list. you
all sound so amazing! i just felt like i needed to express that.

much love,
ben

______________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 14:46:46 -0500
reply-to:     sarah pinsker <spinsker@goucher.edu>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         sarah pinsker <spinsker@goucher.edu>
subject:      michelle malone stars
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as was already said, the new cd is michelle, with the others playing backup.
the songs are teen lament, big black bag, wild horses, green, and butter
biscuit.

sarah
spinsker@goucher.edu

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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 12:52:02 -0700
reply-to:     garian <vigil@ucsu.colorado.edu>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         garian <vigil@ucsu.colorado.edu>
subject:      re: michelle malone stars
in-reply-to:  <430f2aa7.368ad569@aol.com>
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on wed, 30 dec 1998 memememi@aol.com wrote:

> and the "lucky to be live" ep that michelle is selling *is* michelle's cd.  it
> was recorded at the cotton club in august, at a show where michael, sheila and
> gerard were also playing with her.   right now, it's just available at her
> shows, but after the new year, it should be available in stores.  it's on the
> velvel label.

it is also available by mail order on her website
<www.michellemalone.com>.  i got it for xmas and i think it's great.  i
only wish it were a full album and not just an ep!

g.

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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 13:19:16 -0600
reply-to:     amy swenson <aswenson@students.uiuc.edu>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         amy swenson <aswenson@students.uiuc.edu>
subject:      attn: kirsten schaney and marg (rhythm19)
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kirsten schaney and marg (rhythm19@aol.com), will you please contact me?

thanks! :)
amy

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date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 13:01:12 pst
reply-to:     one bug <onebug@hotmail.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         one bug <onebug@hotmail.com>
subject:      re: michelle malone stars
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>
>>and the "lucky to be live" ep that michelle is selling *is*
>>michelle's cd.
>

  hello...
i just thought i would share...    i was reading the small discussion
on this when i ran across someone saying that 'lucky to be alive' was
soley by michelle and not considered "michelle malone stars"...  i was
browsing the official michelle web site.. and found an ad for the lucky
alive cd.. explaining how it could be bought online or in concert or in
stores in 1999..   however the cd was advertised as by "michelle malone
stars"...  they said the cd title,  that is was by the group.. and
included the group members.   im not trying to disagree with the person
who wrote what is above.. i just found it interesting that they now
advertise the lucky to be alive cd as by the "michelle malone stars".  i
wonder if maybe the songs were recorded and then they decided to be a
group and use that cd or what??

=)
lori

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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 14:03:37 -0800
reply-to:     i never was the fantasy of what you wanted me to be
              <sgb29641@email.csun.edu>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         i never was the fantasy of what you wanted me to be
              <sgb29641@email.csun.edu>
subject:      re: ig background music ;)
x-to:         joan morrison <morrison_joan@webtv.net>
in-reply-to:  <7363-368a7949-1832@mailtod-221.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
mime-version: 1.0
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on wed, 30 dec 1998, joan morrison wrote:

> songs that would be good to make love to?  hmm...let's see   well, for
> starters, i would say these (more for the music and mood than the
> lyrics):

        oooh, i like this thread, as it gives me something to fantasize
about . . .  *giggle*  let's see . . .

in no particular order:
shed your skin
touch me fall (*so* definitely)
southland in the springtime
secure yourself (don't ask me why)
power of two
everything in its own time
love will come to you
keeper of my heart
kid fears
jonas and ezekial
language or the kiss
dead man's hill
love's recovery (the 1200 curfews version--that saxophone adds nuance)

out of non-ig songs, i might have to throw in a few of the following . . .

are you out there, by dar williams
raspberry swirl, by tori amos (*wow*)
pulse, by ani difranco
ice cream, by sarah mclachlan
the mummers' dance, by loreena mckennitt
84,000 different delusions, by shawn colvin

okay, that was a fun thread.  :)

        screaming in cathedrals,
        shanie
__sgb29641@csun.edu____________________http://members.xoom.com/cornflakegrl__
"and i feel it like a sickness, how this love is killing me, and i'd walk into
the fingers of your fire willingly, and dance the edge of sanity--i've never
been this close, in love with your ghost . . . " -- "ghost," indigo girls

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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 16:20:38 pst
reply-to:     intractable spice <jillyc@hotmail.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         intractable spice <jillyc@hotmail.com>
subject:      the jilly news hour
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happy happy all,
let's make a list!

1) you make me smile when you get all nigcy.
but maybe not so when you discuss your uhm sex lives and bed death and
all.  (i'm referring to the posts specifically about sex lives, not the
ones about sex*uality*.  got me?)  i don't want to hear about anyone's
snogging if i can't see any of my own.  grumblegrumblehrm.

2) touch me fall is the best makeout song.  the chickenwomyn knows this.
oh ha.

3) i love jami k.  and her little scanner too.

4) if anyone likes thalia zedek/come, please email me, i'll hook you up
with something yummy.

5) i got a nice old secondhand (actually more like fourthhand) vantage
guitar for christmas and i'm now trying to teach myself to play, using
http://www.guitarplaying.com/gs-lessons.shtml .  and it's just so
freaking daunting.  i have very limited knowledge of music theory, i've
never played any instrument whatsoever (besides singing, but anyone can
do that), and i have no teacher.  just the computer.  sigh.  so, i
dunno, i guess i'm asking for advice, motivation, something.  i feel
like an idiot.  i mean, if jewel can play a guitar, why the heck can't
i?  grr.  i really want to learn to play, and i'm just so frustrated
with my apparent lack of musical mind that i could cry.  i have such
respect and admiration for those of you who can play an instrument,
because it's so hard for me to do.  so i guess go congratulate
yourselves for knowing your frets and chords and diminished thirds.

6) in the most recent issue of curve magazine, there's a little blurb
about the michigan womyn's music festival, and they donate like 2/3 of
the blurb to the indigo girls.  that magazine takes on such a 'meat
market' tone about lesbians, and they certainly did it here too.
insulting.  anyhow, go look for it at the newsstand cause i don't have
it here to copy the article for you guys.

tis all for now.
jill

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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 16:42:59 pst
reply-to:     intractable spice <jillyc@hotmail.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         intractable spice <jillyc@hotmail.com>
subject:      dar williams australia boot question
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hey-- sherlyn, esp.--
i've got a boot of dar in australia in march of this year.
now, tell me i'm not going nuts.
does she, or does she not say that she's playing that iowa song for our
sherlyn?  i swear she says so.

jill

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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 20:40:36 -0500
reply-to:     burton emanuelle neuman <eburton@brynmawr.edu>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         burton emanuelle neuman <eburton@brynmawr.edu>
subject:      coming out stories
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        i've been away for a week, and i'm reading through all my accrued
mail... i have to say, one reason it took me so long to join the list (i
knew about it and was a die-hard fan for more than two years before i
signed on) was because i thought it would end up being a lot of stories
about people's struggles for sexual identity and other nigc stuff that i
didn't really care to hear about. but the letters that people have sent
on this thread have moved me so profoundly... so thank you to everybody
who's written in on this thread. i am proud to be a member of this
community (albeit one without any worthwhile life stories to offer up.)
        happy new year, everybody...
        mandy


        "i'd kiss you if you weren't so damn ugly."
                                -agent scully

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=========================================================================
date:         thu, 31 dec 1998 19:00:23 pst
reply-to:     melanie m <melanie33@hotmail.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         melanie m <melanie33@hotmail.com>
subject:      new zealand.. nigc
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hi everyone! i've been away for a few months and it's great to be back
on the list! i've been working at a club med where there is no net
access, so it's good to be back online!

listen, i was just wondering if anyone is from new zealand.. i'm
australian but have found a really great course i want to do that's in
christchurch, nz (a 2 yr diploma in circus skills and physical theatre!
:) .. anyway, does anyone know if it's at all gay-friendly there? i
assume circus people aren't all that conservative, but i haven't got a
clue as i've never been there, but i'm curious to find out.. now that
i'm thinking of spending a couple of years there! well, if someone
knows, please email me.. :)

happy new year!

love mel

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=========================================================================
date:         fri, 1 jan 1999 05:17:10 +0100
reply-to:     britta graeber <brgr@stud.uni-sb.de>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@netspace.org>
from:         britta graeber <brgr@stud.uni-sb.de>
subject:      happy new year
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hi everyone,

it's 5:15 in the wee hours of the year and i've just returned from a
surprisingly nice new year's eve party, while the first of you on the other
side of the ocean are uncorking their champagne bottles to salute the new year.

a very happy and indigoish 1999 and a big hug from

britta
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
lift me through my love and anger,
these are my gods, these are my scars.
lift me through my love and anger,
my arms are burning, but they're open wide.
(amy  ray)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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