lifeblood: listlogs: 2002-12c


=========================================================================
date:         sun, 15 dec 2002 01:50:29 est
reply-to:     indigokare@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "karen r." <indigokare@aol.com>
subject:      seeking good chicago tickets
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hey,


i just got home from the cupertino show/weekend (i had a lot of friends in
from out of town, so we hung out last night).  anyway, i am way too tired to
post a review.  :)


anyway, i was wondering if anyone has any extra (good) tickets for the
upcoming chicago show.  i decided that i want to go and bring my mom and
(possibly) her boyfriend.  i would take either 2 or 3.  please let me know.


also, just saw that tickets for an iowa city show go onsale 17 dec.  yeehaw!
(i have friends in ia).


:-) karen


*****
"they're sending soldiers to distant places, xs and os on someone's drawing
board
like green and plastic, but with human faces, and they want to tell you it's
a merciful
sword; but with all the blood newly dried in the deserts, can we not
fertilize the land with something else?  there is no nation, by god exempted,
lay down your weapons
and love your neighbor as yourself..."
  ~~ emily saliers, indigo girls


"now i'm running to the end of the earth, and i'm swimming to the edge of the
sea, and i'm laughing, i'm under a starry sky, this world was meant for me,
don't bury me, carry me"
~~ amy ray, indigo girls


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=========================================================================
date:         sun, 15 dec 2002 09:24:37 -0800
reply-to:     amy l clements <amyloretta@juno.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         amy l clements <amyloretta@juno.com>
subject:      re: madison tickets
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any one have the minneapolis presale code?


thanks!


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=========================================================================
date:         sun, 15 dec 2002 23:17:16 -0800
reply-to:     kris hubbard <tattoo1981@hotmail.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         kris hubbard <tattoo1981@hotmail.com>
subject:      igc: scooter boys
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hello ladies and gents-


would someone please tell me about what is meant by scooter boys on sots?


thanks
kris


please visit trials of queer parenting
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gender is everything else.-kate borstein
every 5 hours 1 queer teen commits suicide.


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=========================================================================
date:         mon, 16 dec 2002 07:26:18 -0800
reply-to:     bonster <bonster@drizzle.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         bonster <bonster@drizzle.com>
subject:      kmtt voting, sort of igc
x-to:         kirsten schaney <ssejarez@aol.com>
in-reply-to:  <12e.1d3a00d7.2b2830a1@aol.com>
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kmtt in seattle is doing the same thing (except it's a top 10):
http://kmtt.com


-bon


on wed, 11 dec 2002, kirsten schaney wrote:


> hi all!  for all of you who may listen to an xpn station, especially in
> philly/wilmington/etc area, they are now collecting votes for thier annual
> top 50 albums of the year.  you get to vote for your favorite five albums
> from an extensive list.  become you is included.  everyone get out and vote
> at <a href="www.xpn.org">www.xpn.org</a>!!!!
>
>
> lets help ig get to the top of the list!
>
> kirsten
>


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=========================================================================
date:         mon, 16 dec 2002 15:21:30 -0500
reply-to:     dmdexter@earthlink.net
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         diana dexter <dmdexter@earthlink.net>
subject:      looking for meadowbrook boot
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hi!

i'm hoping someone out there has a boot of the 9/21/02 show at meadowbrook farm in gilford, new hampshire. amy sang "romeo & juliet" and i'd love to be able to hear it again (and again, and again...). thanks!!!!

diana dexter
dmdexter@earthlink.net
why wait? move to earthlink.

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=========================================================================
date:         mon, 16 dec 2002 14:17:55 -0600
reply-to:     diane hartley <diwendy93@earthlink.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         diane hartley <diwendy93@earthlink.net>
subject:      tickets to the tabernacle show!!!  wednesday!
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folks:


i still have 2 excellent seats for wednesday's show.  they're great =
seats - section 50 row d seats 1 and 2.  that's pretty much in the =
center.


i'm asking what i paid - $90...or best offer!  make me an offer!!!


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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 17 dec 2002 02:22:47 +0100
reply-to:     kathrin siegmund <kathrin_siegmund@gmx.de>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         kathrin siegmund <kathrin_siegmund@gmx.de>
subject:      cover story from the pittsburgh post-gazette (from july)
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hey all,


prolly old news but don't remember it having been posted here, so....


http://www.post-gazette.com/ae/20020607indigo2.asp


be well,
kathrin


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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 17 dec 2002 01:45:02 est
reply-to:     sprdinosur@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         joe agueci <sprdinosur@aol.com>
subject:      re: igc: scooter boys
x-to:         tattoo1981@hotmail.com
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hkf's ,

scooter boys, not being one of my favorite songs at all on tape, is a kick
ass, rockin,  fist pumping, ear drum bleeding, headbanging party song that
gets the entire crowd jumping and moving! whoooooooo!!!!!


i don't have the lyrics in front of me and will do a line by line analisys
soon, but over all, it's about greed and evils it brings.


next!


joe
manhattan,ny


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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 17 dec 2002 00:41:13 -0800
reply-to:     kris hubbard <tattoo1981@hotmail.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         kris hubbard <tattoo1981@hotmail.com>
subject:      re: igc: scooter boys
x-to:         sprdinosur@aol.com
mime-version: 1.0
content-type: text/plain; format=flowed


thank you all for the info.


kris

from: joe agueci <sprdinosur@aol.com>
reply-to: sprdinosur@aol.com
to: indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org
subject: re: igc: scooter boys
date: tue, 17 dec 2002 01:45:02 est


hkf's ,

scooter boys, not being one of my favorite songs at all on tape, is a kick
ass, rockin,  fist pumping, ear drum bleeding, headbanging party song that
gets the entire crowd jumping and moving! whoooooooo!!!!!


i don't have the lyrics in front of me and will do a line by line analisys
soon, but over all, it's about greed and evils it brings.


next!


joe
manhattan,ny


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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 17 dec 2002 14:13:22 -0500
reply-to:     victoria.heckler@ppfa.org
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "<victoria heckler>" <victoria.heckler@ppfa.org>
subject:      hot off the press!!!!
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this just in!


the girls have a gig at singletary center for the arts in lexington, ky, on
tuesday, february 11th. tickets go on sale tomorrow (dec. 18th) at noon and
are being handled entirely by the venue. no ticketmaster!!!


(however, please keep in mind that the venue box office has a handful of
manual phone lines and no automated ticketing yet, so telephone reservations
may take a bit longer.)


info is as follows:


indigo girls
february 11, 2003


tickets on sale december 18, 2002
purchase tickets at singletary center ticket office
tickets are $30/general
$5 discount with valid uk student id
$3 discount with valid uk faculty/staff id
for info or to purchase tickets
call 257-4929


hope to see you all in our little corner of the midwest!!!


**scfa is the performing arts center of the university of kentucky and
normally hosts everything from philharmonic concerts to denise graves. the
1,515 seat auditorium features fabulous acoustics. they have just started
with this new concert series, which is geared toward student audiences.
previous shows in the series have been ben folds, duncan sheik and nickel
creek. in april, ani difranco will appear, as well.


p.s. please note that, since it is an arm of the university, the ticket
office will be closed the week between christmas and new year's, so get your
tickets early!!!


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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 17 dec 2002 17:39:45 -0500
reply-to:     indigokare@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "karen r." <indigokare@aol.com>
subject:      madison, wisconsin date!
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ticketbastard has a madison, wisconsin date listed.  tickets go on sale on 19 dec (and it's a presale, so i bet there will be a password).  the show is on 4 feb.


just a heads up!


:-) karen


ps- iowa city tickets are onsale now!!!


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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 17 dec 2002 15:24:16 -0800
reply-to:     indigorocker@ecologyfund.net
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         sophie gaarder <indigorocker@ecologyfund.net>
subject:      new list-member in orlando
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hey fellow ig fans!


my name is emma, i've been a fan of the girls for a few years now, and just found my way on to this list.  i've been to 2 concerts in orlando, one in october and one in may 2000.  i was just wondering if there is anyone else on the list who attended the concerts who might have any pictures, bootlegs, etc . . . any memento of the concert at all.  or if you know of any sites or other lists i could try, that would be nice too!!


peace, love, amy, & emily . . .
    ~*~ em
"you are as beautiful as truth, and as empty as a shell . . ."
"rock is cool, but the struggle is better"


_____________________________________________________________
conserve wilderness with a click (free!) and get your own ecologyfund.net email (free!) at http://www.ecologyfund.com.


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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 17 dec 2002 21:03:42 -0600
reply-to:     andrea crain <acrain@idea-inc.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         andrea crain <acrain@idea-inc.com>
subject:      the indigo girls return to madison (fwd)
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the presale password for the madison date is galileo. see below for more
info.


---------- forwarded message ----------
from: mmmembers only <1055_triplem@listenerclub.com>
to: andrea crain <acrain@idea-inc.com>
date: tue, 17 dec 2002 10:49:14 -0800
subject: the indigo girls return to madison


it's jonathon and kitty in the morning.  stumped for christmas gift ideas?
how about indigo girls tickets?   or a new year's eve party at the hilton?
or live from studio m volume two?   through all the rushing around during
the holiday season, we hope it's a happy time for you and the people you
care about, and we'll be here 24/7....now and in the new year to share it
with you.

triple m is very proud to welcome the indigo girls to the madison civic
center on tuesday, february 4.  as a mmmember, not only are you hearing
about this show before it's announced,
http://ims-go.com/go.asp?url=1538&mid=15589&uid=2107425 but you can order
tickets before they go on sale on friday morning!   all seats are
reserved, and they're all $30.
http://ims-go.com/go.asp?url=1548&mid=15589&uid=2107425 for the mmmembers
only pre-sale, which will only be available from 10am thursday, december
19 to 10am friday, december 20.  your mmmembers only password is galileo .


<snipped the rest of the blah-blah-blah...>


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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 18 dec 2002 15:24:57 +1100
reply-to:     sue maynard <suevill@alphalink.com.au>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         sue maynard <suevill@alphalink.com.au>
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my annual festive greeting to the list, please feel free to use the url (i
made it myself, and it stays up there permanently
to all at this time of celebration
http://www.alphalink.com.au/~suevill/card.html
hugs
sue
(if i have inadvertently left off any celebration, please let me know, i'm
hoping to do others for other clustered celebrations through the year
eventually)
sue maynard, founder and president
bears who care inc. a cuddly friend for kids in crisis
http://www.alphalink.com.au/~suevill/bwc.html


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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 17 dec 2002 22:30:53 -0600
reply-to:     andrea crain <acrain@idea-inc.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         andrea crain <acrain@idea-inc.com>
subject:      re: new list-member in orlando
in-reply-to:  <20021217232416.c08294573@sitemail.everyone.net>
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you can try the igbooters list on yahoo, too. email me that you're going
to sign up so i can approve you quickly. (i screen new members to be sure
they're not spammers.)


on tue, 17 dec 2002, sophie gaarder wrote:


> hey fellow ig fans!
>
> my name is emma, i've been a fan of the girls for a few years now, and just found my way on to this list.  i've been to 2 concerts in orlando, one in october and one in may 2000.  i was just wondering if there is anyone else on the list who attended the concerts who might have any pictures, bootlegs, etc . . . any memento of the concert at all.  or if you know of any sites or other lists i could try, that would be nice too!!
>
> peace, love, amy, & emily . . .
>     ~*~ em
> "you are as beautiful as truth, and as empty as a shell . . ."
> "rock is cool, but the struggle is better"
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> conserve wilderness with a click (free!) and get your own ecologyfund.net email (free!) at http://www.ecologyfund.com.
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> select your own custom email address for free! get you@yourchoice.com w/no ads, 6mb, pop & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag
>
> --
> please do not send excessive amounts of quoted text and/or nigc,
> long signatures, attachments or flames to the list.
> indigo girls faq and indigo girls mailing list faq:
> http://www.pixelopolis.com/ig
>


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=========================================================================
date:         tue, 17 dec 2002 23:03:15 -0600
reply-to:     eburton@uchicago.edu
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         mandy burton <eburton@uchicago.edu>
subject:      madison show via chicago
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hey y'all -


are there any chicagofolk out there who are planning to go to this concert? i
would love to go, but i work at 8am the next morning and have no car - and late-
night greyhound seems a sketchy proposition. i'd be be very grateful to (and
more than happy to cover gas costs for) anybody who could get me somewhere in
the cta network after the concert that night.


:) mandy


p.s. i bake excellent cookies. i'm just saying.


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date:         tue, 17 dec 2002 23:50:22 -0600
reply-to:     barbara bordner <ritesofpassage9@webtv.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         barbara bordner <ritesofpassage9@webtv.net>
subject:      ig in minnesota
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ok...i missed out on something. have tickets gone on sale for the state
theater  yet? if not
does anyone know when  or is it still a mystery?


(i can't get into ticketmaster...god alone knows why.)


peace
barb


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date:         wed, 18 dec 2002 02:24:40 -0600
reply-to:     shazzi <shazzi@comcast.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         shazzi <shazzi@comcast.net>
subject:      st louis date
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the pageant st louis, mo
wed, feb 12, 2003 8:00pm


presale starts...thu, 12/19/02, 10:00am
general public:
fri, 12/20/02, 5:00pm


some one find a password (if needed) i don't know how to find out.


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date:         wed, 18 dec 2002 08:23:02 -0500
reply-to:     "jennifer m." <shedyourskin23@hotmail.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "jennifer m." <shedyourskin23@hotmail.com>
subject:      from today's atlanta journal-constitution
mime-version: 1.0
content-type: text/html

http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/living/music/1202/18tabernacle.html


concert a multiple win-win gig

by sonia murray
atlanta journal-constitution staff writer

  
indigo girls amy ray and emily saliers


  concert preview
holiday music revue with the indigo girls, shawn mullins, the jayhawks, josh joplin group, fastball, rhett miller, tift merritt and peter stuart. 7:30 wednesday at the tabernacle, 152 luckie st. n.w. $25-$36.50 at ticketmaster, 404-249-6400 or www.ticketmaster.com. net proceeds to benefit a local charity yet to be determined.

- more pop music coverage


  


this is a musical benefit in four or five senses of the word. the 1,800 concertgoers expected to pack downtown's tabernacle wednesday evening will get to hear eight pop, rock and folk acts in a pretty loose setting. they will do their hits, join in on the other artists' favorites -- and pull from a grab bag of holiday tunes.

not to mention the added bonus of the first atlanta performance from hometown singer-songwriter shawn mullins this year. (up until a few days ago he's been in southern tracks studio working with matthew sweet and pete droge on a new brendan o'brien-produced side project called no thorns.)

the artists on the bill -- who also include decatur folk duo the indigo girls, alt-country rockers the jayhawks and others -- get the usual pleasures of performing before an enthused, paying audience.

plus, as their atlanta manager russell carter explains it, this is an opportunity for the musicians to drum up support for an adult alternative radio format in atlanta; a format the indigos and others in this lineup are part of in other parts of the country.

every sunday for weeks now, mix-105.7 has turned off the usual classic rock and given singer-songwriters a chance, a programming shift carter hopes will go daily. the clear channel communications-owned station will have every opportunity wednesday night to talk up the show at this clear channel-booked venue.



________________________________________________

"there is no nation by god exempted. lay down your weapons and love your neighbor as yourself..." ~es, deliverance, 2002.


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=========================================================================
date:         wed, 18 dec 2002 10:50:04 est
reply-to:     indigotraveller@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         indigotraveller@aol.com
subject:      performing songwriter
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i just picked up the performing songwriter with amy on the cover.  i strongly
encourage all of you to stop by a bookstore and check it out.  it's well
worth getting.


lauren


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date:         wed, 18 dec 2002 09:57:06 -0600
reply-to:     "kovacs, mirinda" <mirinda.kovacs@westgroup.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "kovacs, mirinda" <mirinda.kovacs@westgroup.com>
subject:      re: performing songwriter
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what bookstores carry this?  i looked at two different barnes & nobles over
the weekend and neither one of them had it.


-----original message-----
from: indigotraveller@aol.com [mailto:indigotraveller@aol.com]
sent: wednesday, december 18, 2002 9:50 am
to: indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org
subject: performing songwriter

i just picked up the performing songwriter with amy on the cover.  i
strongly
encourage all of you to stop by a bookstore and check it out.  it's well
worth getting.


lauren


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date:         wed, 18 dec 2002 11:20:41 est
reply-to:     hlonondvance@aol.com
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from:         heather lonon <hlonondvance@aol.com>
subject:      =?iso-8859-1?q?re:=20=a0=20=a0=20=a0=20re:=20performing=20songwr?=
              =?iso-8859-1?q?iter?=
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i have seen it at books a million.   i am a new member, so hi all!!


heather


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date:         wed, 18 dec 2002 11:25:38 est
reply-to:     rainnriver@aol.com
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from:         "<sarah t. rosenblum>" <rainnriver@aol.com>
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in a message dated 12/18/02 10:58:32 am, mirinda.kovacs@westgroup.com writes:


<< what bookstores carry this?  i looked at two different barnes & nobles over


the weekend and neither one of them had it.


>>


barnes and noble does carry it. i work there and that's where i got mine.
maybe some b and n's don't though. if someone really can't locate a copy i
could probably pick one up, but i'll need to get money for the mag and for
shipping in advance because christmas wiped me out and i don't have enough
money to front right now.
-sarah


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date:         wed, 18 dec 2002 12:07:14 est
reply-to:     woodelldc@aol.com
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       i've come to discover that tuesday is generally the day new mags hit
the stands (nicole kidman has been on a lot of covers lately!! haha!!), so
give them a little leeway for holiday busy-ness and perhaps it will be there
by the weekend. i won't have any extra pocket money till thursday or friday
anyway.
       i saw last month's ps at a borders, by the way.
deb
the further in you look, the further out you see... -- sonia rutstein


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date:         wed, 18 dec 2002 12:58:02 -0500
reply-to:     photomonk@earthlink.net
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it can also be ordered on the web at www=2eperformingsongwriter=2ecom and =
that
is even after the issues change (assuming the issue in question hadnt yet
sold out, like some past issues have)=2e  so, you can also look for other
issues in which indigo girls have been featured as a group=2e


this current one is a terrific issue all around, with lots of good stuff=2e=


and i am psyched because two of my photos of amy from newport 2001made it
into the daemon article=2e (sorry for the ego moment)


amy p=2e


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2ecom/ =2e


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date:         wed, 18 dec 2002 07:48:05 -0500
reply-to:     jess cantelo <jdcantel@mtholyoke.edu>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         jess cantelo <jdcantel@mtholyoke.edu>
subject:      the orpheum show
x-to:         susan marine <susmarine@hotmail.com>
in-reply-to:  <pine.osf.4.44.0212111244450.463841-100000@mhc.mtholyoke.edu>
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did anyone happen to tape the orpheum and get a decent quality recording?
or, actually, does anyone have the setlist as played from that night?  i'm
making a cd for a friend that came with me for christmas (it was her first
show...) and want to put the setlist on the cd.  if someone could email
that to me if you have it (it's yet to be posted on the site...) that
would be awesome!  thank you so much!


jess


*******************************************************************
"you said, it must be 4am.  and i said, if i don't kiss you now, i
       may never sleep again." c. curtis
"my hair-trigger love and faulty spring." -e. saliers
*******************************************************************
jessica d. cantelo             "life and love are life and love,
mhc '00                          a bunch of violets is a bunch
88 whiteloaf rd.                   of violets, and to drag in the idea
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(413)563-0109                                   -d.h. lawrence
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date:         wed, 18 dec 2002 20:54:32 -0600
reply-to:     "e.s." <igfan19@hotmail.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "e.s." <igfan19@hotmail.com>
subject:      re: performing songwriter
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thanks amyp


i was able to get the current issue plus a back issue with the girls on =
it.!

paula=20


  ----- original message -----=20
  from: photomonk@earthlink.net=20
  to: indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org=20
  sent: wednesday, december 18, 2002 11:58 am
  subject: re: performing songwriter

  it can also be ordered on the web at www.performingsongwriter.com and =
that
  is even after the issues change (assuming the issue in question hadnt =
yet
  sold out, like some past issues have).


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date:         wed, 18 dec 2002 19:38:19 -0800
reply-to:     juliana smith <monkeemaidjules@yahoo.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         juliana smith <monkeemaidjules@yahoo.com>
subject:      re: the indigo girls return to madison (fwd)
in-reply-to:  <pine.lnx.4.33.0212172102130.9534-100000@morimoto.idea-inc.com>
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howdy ya'll,


about this ticketmaster thing for the madison show.  i
just looked it up online and it's not listed as being
scheduled yet, most likely because it's a presale.
will a link that will allow me to buy tickets appear
as of 10am tomorrow morning or do i need to go to
another website to *get* to the link that will get me
tickets during the presale?


the indigo girls don't come to wi enough and i'm so
psyched about this.  i just got into my very first car
accident today-my neon sustained damage, the other
person was in a buick and has a couple of scratches on
his huge bumper, you can guess who got the better
deal...-so this concert would really cheer me up, i'm
in the proverbial depths of dispair.


if anyone could give me info before ten tomorrow
morning i'd love you forever, this is only my very
second concert and now knowing what a *high* their
concerts are i'm desperate for some ground floor
tickets... their crowds are truly one of a kind and to
be a part of that again... <chills>!  yeah!!


ok, i've gushed, lemme know someone, help this really
pathetic 20 year old first-time crashee out!  peace
and much xmas love to ya'll!


=====
~juliana


"part of emily is saying, 'we're working hard, and now you just shot us in the foot.' but i feel like we're shut out of that (rolling stone) anyway, so why not go out in a blaze of glory?" ~amy discussing emily's reaction to "lucystoners".


__________________________________________________
do you yahoo!?
yahoo! mail plus - powerful. affordable. sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 10:15:35 -0600
reply-to:     n_d_go_grl@hotmail.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         traci drago <n_d_go_grl@hotmail.com>
subject:      stl password is girls
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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 11:16:14 est
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subject:      madison presale help
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is anyone else having trouble getting in? it keeps askign me to enter a word
in a box to stop autamated ticket buying but there is no word in the box and
it's telling me i falied help!


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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 11:36:33 -0500
reply-to:     moondust@gate.net
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         dreiser <moondust@gate.net>
subject:      re: madison presale help


i get in, but after entering credit card info, etc, i get a page saying there
"was a problem processing your request". i had seats in center section, row cc
4 times and lost them each time! i still don't have tickets because i keep
getting the same damn error message. i sent an email to customer service, but
don't know if that will do any good.


deb


----- original message -----
from: "<sarah t. rosenblum>" <rainnriver@aol.com>
to: <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
sent: thursday, december 19, 2002 10:16 am
subject: madison presale help

> is anyone else having trouble getting in? it keeps askign me to enter a word
> in a box to stop autamated ticket buying but there is no word in the box and
> it's telling me i falied help!
>
> --
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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 12:05:13 -0500
reply-to:     moondust@gate.net
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         dreiser <moondust@gate.net>
subject:      madison presale mess


ugh, what a silly process. after 45 minutes of error messages i was finally
priviledged to get two tickets in row d of the balcony! that is a far cry from
the original tix i pulled dead center in row cc. i think i'm going to try
again tomorrow in hopes that other good seats where held back during presale.


anyone else have better luck?


deb


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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 17:16:33 +0000
reply-to:     sburk@attbi.com
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from:         "s. b." <sburk@attbi.com>
subject:      tabernacle reviews?


i'm curious to hear how the show at the tabernacle was last night. how about
some reviews? :)


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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 12:28:49 -0500
reply-to:     victoria.heckler@ppfa.org
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "<victoria heckler>" <victoria.heckler@ppfa.org>
subject:      re: tabernacle reviews?
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i posted a rather lengthy review on the tour info section of
www.indigogirls.com/bbs ... its entitled "russell carter's holiday
hootenanny."  there is also a link to pictures i posted from last night.  in
a nutshell, emily did "river," amy did "dairy queen," they both joined shawn
mullins on a new song he wrote.  ig's set was:


moment of forgiveness
get out the map
kid fears (w/paul melancon)
closer to fine (w/peter stuart)


then, they invited all the artists onstage and did "merry christmas (war is
over)/give peace a chance" hootenanny style.


-----original message-----
from: s. b.
to: indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org
sent: 12/19/2002 12:16 pm
subject: tabernacle reviews?


i'm curious to hear how the show at the tabernacle was last night. how
about
some reviews? :)


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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 11:35:37 -0600
reply-to:     andrea crain <acrain@idea-inc.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         andrea crain <acrain@idea-inc.com>
subject:      ticketmaster's "type in this word" thing
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i saw the image of the word with no problem. you should probably upgrade
your browser. you can also try right-clicking on the box where it should
be and saying load image to see if it helps.


so sorry it wasn't working for you, though! buck up, presale tickets are
not always the best ones. upgrade your browser, make sure it works, try
again when the regular sale starts.


-andrea


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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 11:36:56 -0600
reply-to:     tgreen@uab.edu
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from:         todd green <green@io.cbse.uab.edu>
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no time right now for a review but i can tell you what songs the igs did:


-emily solo - river(joni mitchell)
-amy solo - dairy queen


-amy and emily did a song with show mullins


indigo girls:
-moment of forgiveness
-get out the map
-kid fears (w/ paul melancon)
-closer to fine (w/ peter stuart)
(jeez i think that was all, many folks were probably disappointed with
the number of tracks but they got one more than the average three more
if you count their solo songs)


everyone came out to do:
-some x-mas song that i've heard a million times but don't know the name of....sorry
-give peace a chance


i think thats all that amy and emily were involved with - todd


"s. b." wrote:
>
> i'm curious to hear how the show at the tabernacle was last night. how about
> some reviews? :)
>
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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 13:19:02 -0500
reply-to:     anna creech <creechal@spamcop.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         anna creech <creechal@spamcop.net>
subject:      my headache-free experience with a non-ticketmaster venue
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yesterday, tickets went on sale at noon for the february show in lexington (ky).
i work about 30 miles away from the venue, so going there to purchase tickets
directly was not an option.  they aren't online at this time, so i had to call
to get the tickets.


about 15 minutes after they went on sale, i started trying to get through on the
phone.  the first time i called and the lines were busy, the phone system
shunted me to the voicemail.  i left a message with my number, but i hardly
expected that they would call me back, particularly since it is local long-distance.


several attempts to get through in the next hour failed, but almost an hour
after i left the message, someone in the ticket office returned my call.  i was
able to get 7th row center tickets, and there were still front row tickets (on
the side) available.  i chose the 7th row because it's the first row that is
level with the stage, and it was also the first best row that had center section
tickets available.


all in all, it was a good experience and much better than any other large venue
i have run across.  my guess is that they still have good tickets available, so
if you're in the area, give it a try.  the singletary center is a great venue
(from what i've heard), so even the "bad" seats will likely be better than some
"good" seats in other venues.


anna


"i think that librarians get a bum rap. they're constantly represented as
these staid do-gooders, hair in a bun, glasses on the nose. in fact,
librarians have better eyesight than most professionals."  --alan kurzweil
http://www.eclecticlibrarian.net | good music found here: mp3.com/wishingchair


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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 13:21:00 -0500
reply-to:     anna creech <creechal@spamcop.net>
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for two adult tickets, the only processing fees i had to pay were $3.  also,
there was no extra charges for mailing me the tickets rather than leaving them
at will call.


anna


"i think that librarians get a bum rap. they're constantly represented as
these staid do-gooders, hair in a bun, glasses on the nose. in fact,
librarians have better eyesight than most professionals."  --alan kurzweil
http://www.eclecticlibrarian.net | good music found here: mp3.com/wishingchair


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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 13:21:46 -0500
reply-to:     neil@andineil.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "neil :o)" <neil@andineil.com>
subject:      february tou dates
in-reply-to:  <1040187795.3e000193dcff1@webmail.uchicago.edu>
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heyhey...


not sure if this has been posted yet, but i figured it couldn't hurt
anyways...


sat 02/01/03   urbana, il  krannert center
mon 02/03/03   iowa city, ia  imu main lounge
tue 02/04/03   madison, wi  oscar mayer theatre
thu 02/06/03   chicago, il  chicago theatre
sat 02/08/03   minneapolis, mn  state theatre
tue 02/11/03   wilmington, de grand opera house (rescheduled date)
sat 02/15/03   oberlin, oh  finney chapel


neil
@}--,--'--


coming soon to our house concert series:
january 25th: nancy falkow, amber delaurentis,
   christine havrilla and colleen mcfarland(!)
www.sixthst.com


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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 13:25:56 -0500
reply-to:     neil@andineil.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "neil :o)" <neil@andineil.com>
subject:      february tour dates - correction
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neil hunt
pennsylvania land transfer co.
24 e front st, media, pa 19063
www.palandtransfer.com


-----original message-----
from: neil :o) [mailto:neil@andineil.com]
sent: thursday, december 19, 2002 1:22 pm
to: indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org
subject: february tou dates

heyhey...


let me try that again - missed out a couple.


sat 02/01/03   urbana, il  krannert center
mon 02/03/03   iowa city, ia  imu main lounge
tue 02/04/03   madison, wi  oscar mayer theatre
thu 02/06/03   chicago, il  chicago theatre
sat 02/08/03   minneapolis, mn  state theatre
mon 02/10/03   bloomington, in  indiana university auditorium
tue 02/11/03   wilmington, de  grand opera house (rescheduled date)
wed 02/12/03   st louis, mo  the pageant
sat 02/15/03   oberlin, oh  finney chapel


neil
@}--,--'--


coming soon to our house concert series:
january 25th: nancy falkow, amber delaurentis,
   christine havrilla and colleen mcfarland(!)
www.sixthst.com


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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 13:29:19 -0500
reply-to:     mgsb@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         mgsb@aol.com
subject:      february tour dates
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hey neil


where did you get this from????  i thought the de show was tuesday the 18th of feb?????   you have the 11th of feb as the make up date!!!


thanks
sandy


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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 13:42:51 -0500
reply-to:     neil@andineil.com
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from:         "neil :o)" <neil@andineil.com>
subject:      re: february tour dates
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hey...


<<where did you get this from????  i thought the de show was tuesday the
18th of feb?????   you have the 11th of feb as the make up date!!!>>


umm... combination of pollstar, ticketmaster and my memory. unfortunately,
it was the delaware show that relied upon my memory. which, if you say it's
the 18th, could definitely be faulty!!


actually, since the grandopera has a show on the 11th, it'd almost certainly
the 18th. my bad. my bad indeed.


neil
@}--,--'--


coming soon to our house concert series:
january 25th: nancy falkow, amber delaurentis,
   christine havrilla and colleen mcfarland(!)
www.sixthst.com


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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 13:44:21 -0500
reply-to:     anna creech <creechal@spamcop.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         anna creech <creechal@spamcop.net>
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quoting mgsb@aol.com:


> where did you get this from????  i thought the de show was tuesday the 18th
> of feb?????   you have the 11th of feb as the make up date!!!


the indigo girls will be in kentucky on the 11th of feb, so i think that
re-sheduled date is probably wrong.  if not, then they must have cloned themselves.

anna


"i think that librarians get a bum rap. they're constantly represented as
these staid do-gooders, hair in a bun, glasses on the nose. in fact,
librarians have better eyesight than most professionals."  --alan kurzweil
http://www.eclecticlibrarian.net | good music found here: mp3.com/wishingchair


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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 14:26:06 -0600
reply-to:     andrea crain <acrain@idea-inc.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         andrea crain <acrain@idea-inc.com>
subject:      re: february tour dates - correction
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oh i wish i were in oscar mayer theatre
that is where i'd truly love to be
for if i were in oscar mayer theatre
people would be singing songs to me!


clarification for out of towners: oscar mayer theatre is the name of the
main theatre inside the madison civic center, so don't become confused if
you see the venue listed the other way on the ticketmonster page.


> tue 02/04/03   madison, wi  oscar mayer theatre


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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 23:17:47 +0000
reply-to:     "becky b." <indigo_24@hotmail.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "becky b." <indigo_24@hotmail.com>
subject:      signing on to the list
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hi all.
what's the address that i send an email to in order to sign up on the
listserv? i seem to have lost it and also the website where i can find it.
and is the command still signon <name> like it was a few years ago?
thanks,
b


_________________________________________________________________
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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 15:31:18 -0800
reply-to:     juliana smith <monkeemaidjules@yahoo.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         juliana smith <monkeemaidjules@yahoo.com>
subject:      re: madison presale help
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howdy guys,


i got in for the madison show *at* 10am, waited on the
computer and the whole bit.


it wasn't a problem for me actually obtaining the
tickets, but my question is: i was given seats "47-48"
in the "pit" and i wanna know if those are good or bad
tickets!  i assume they're closer to the front than
not since i had my tickets within four minutes of the
presale but i couldn't find a seating chart on the
madison civic center website to save my life!


so if anyone has any experience with the madison civic
center let me know if my seats are crappy or not so
i'm not disappointed the night of the show!  i *think*
i'm on emily's side, but i have no idea how far
back... any info is welcome, and i'm really really
sorry for anyone who had a lot of trouble.
ticketbastard is famous for pissing people off.  peace
and love ya'll!


=====
~juliana


"part of emily is saying, 'we're working hard, and now you just shot us in the foot.' but i feel like we're shut out of that (rolling stone) anyway, so why not go out in a blaze of glory?" ~amy discussing emily's reaction to "lucystoners".


__________________________________________________
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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 18:56:59 -0500
reply-to:     jason hare <hare@optonline.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         jason hare <hare@optonline.net>
subject:      re: february tour dates - correction
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andrea, re:


>oh i wish i were in oscar mayer theatre
>that is where i'd truly love to be
>for if i were in oscar mayer theatre
>people would be singing songs to me!


hahahahahaha....man, it must suck to play that venue.  i mean, here
in ny, bands shout things like "thank you madison square garden!!!"
or "you rock, jones beach!!"


"rock on oscar meyer" just doesn't have the same ring to it.


jason


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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 15:58:11 -0800
reply-to:     juliana smith <monkeemaidjules@yahoo.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         juliana smith <monkeemaidjules@yahoo.com>
subject:      the madison presale
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i can't believe it!


thanks to some help from ya'll i found out i'm row ff
on emily's side, which is sixth row in the dead front!
i had to tell *someone* when i found this out and
figured ya'll would be the only ones to care at all!
major excitement!  it's certainly a soothing balm
after a messy car accident... wisconsin is a crappy
place to drive from about october through march...
anywhom, i just wanted to thank the folks who helped
me navigate the civic center website!  peace and love ya'll!


=====
~juliana


"part of emily is saying, 'we're working hard, and now you just shot us in the foot.' but i feel like we're shut out of that (rolling stone) anyway, so why not go out in a blaze of glory?" ~amy discussing emily's reaction to "lucystoners".


__________________________________________________
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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 18:58:49 est
reply-to:     mgsb@aol.com
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neil


thats ok!!!   you had me worried for a minute!!  yeah it would be the 18th!
:-)


sandy

<<<actually, since the grandopera has a show on the 11th, it'd almost
certainly
the 18th. my bad. my bad indeed.>>>>


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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 22:49:11 est
reply-to:     indigokat@aol.com
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comments:     rfc822 error: <w> incorrect or incomplete address field found and
              ignored.
from:         heidi smith <indigokat@aol.com>
subject:      cruise with the girls.....
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<a href="http://www.olivia.com/cruises/westcarib/index.html">western caribbean cruise</a>


http://www.olivia.com/cruises/westcarib/index.html


look who's going on a cruise.......


indi


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 05:40:32 +0100
reply-to:     tisara@webworqs.com
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from:         "i am 32 flavors and then some..." <tisara@webworqs.com>
subject:      cruise with the girls...
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i just registered to go on that cruise!


i've always wanted to go on one, and what better way to do it than
with the girls?  so if any other listees go, we should party :)


--audra :)


"when i say 'i will be true to you' i am drawing a quiet space
beyond the reach of other desires.  no-one can legislate love;
it cannot be given orders or cajoled into service.  love belongs
to itself, deaf to pleading and unmoved by violence.  love is
not something you can negotiate.  love is the one thing stronger
than desire and the only proper reason to resist temptation."
         -- jeanette winterson, _written on the body_ (p. 77-78)


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date:         thu, 19 dec 2002 23:07:06 -0600
reply-to:     barbara bordner <ritesofpassage9@webtv.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         barbara bordner <ritesofpassage9@webtv.net>
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i landed pit seats for both me and my friend!! second row seats 3 and 4
. i'm so excited!!  i
had to share. who else on this list has pit seats? i can say "hi" if i
know where you are.


peace
barb


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 08:01:42 -0500
reply-to:     jason hare <hare@optonline.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         jason hare <hare@optonline.net>
subject:      more on the cruise
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from the website:


"swim, explore or just soak in the sun and savor the natural and
historical beauty that is the western caribbean, all in the company
of women."


"all in the company of women?"  sounds good to me!  let's go!!


<jason reads website more closely>


waitttaminnit...this is a lesbian cruise?  damnit, now it's just
another tropical vacation where i strike out.  :-(


written in jest (can't believe i had to write that),


jason


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 09:19:57 -0500
reply-to:     tisara@webworqs.com
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*cracks up* you mean you didn't know just by the name olivia?  come
on, jason!  just kidding - but we had to have our own thing, you know!
sorry bout that, but i'll take pictures or something :)


--audra :)


---- original message ----
from:           jason hare
date:           fri 12/20/02 8:49
to:             indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org
subject:        more on the cruise


from the website:


"swim, explore or just soak in the sun and savor the natural and
historical beauty that is the western caribbean, all in the company
of women."


"all in the company of women?"  sounds good to me!  let's go!!


<jason reads website more closely>


waitttaminnit...this is a lesbian cruise?  damnit, now it's just
another tropical vacation where i strike out.  :-(


written in jest (can't believe i had to write that),


jason


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"when i say 'i will be true to you' i am drawing a quiet space
beyond the reach of other desires.  no-one can legislate love;
it cannot be given orders or cajoled into service.  love belongs
to itself, deaf to pleading and unmoved by violence.  love is
not something you can negotiate.  love is the one thing stronger
than desire and the only proper reason to resist temptation."
         -- jeanette winterson, _written on the body_ (p. 77-78)


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 09:00:19 -0600
reply-to:     "kovacs, mirinda" <mirinda.kovacs@westgroup.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "kovacs, mirinda" <mirinda.kovacs@westgroup.com>
subject:      re: more on the cruise
mime-version: 1.0
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so men are not allowed on the cruise?  i wouldn't want to spend that kind of
money for a vacation if my husband couldn't go with me, even if i would have
the opportunity to hang out with a&e.  oh well, i get to go to jamaica in
september anyway.
:)
mi rinda


-----original message-----
from: jason hare [mailto:hare@optonline.net]
sent: friday, december 20, 2002 7:02 am
to: indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org
subject: more on the cruise

from the website:


"swim, explore or just soak in the sun and savor the natural and
historical beauty that is the western caribbean, all in the company
of women."


"all in the company of women?"  sounds good to me!  let's go!!


<jason reads website more closely>


waitttaminnit...this is a lesbian cruise?  damnit, now it's just
another tropical vacation where i strike out.  :-(


written in jest (can't believe i had to write that),


jason


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 12:12:51 est
reply-to:     sprdinosur@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         joe agueci <sprdinosur@aol.com>
subject:      re: more on the cruise
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i don't care....

i'm going!!!!


my god the amount of fun that could be!!!!


i see it this way, if those guys from the dunkin donuts commercial can get
into ladies night, i can make this cruise!


a push up bra, a waxin, and i'll walk on backwards saying "thanks for a great
time"


i'm going.


joe,
manhattan, ny


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 12:17:19 -0500
reply-to:     karen weaver <weaverka@bcsc.k12.in.us>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         karen weaver <weaverka@bcsc.k12.in.us>
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does anyone know what the cruise will offer in regard to the girls?
will they perform?  how many times?  will we really be able to mingle
with them?!~  that seems so unbelievable!


new member, karen


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 11:22:03 -0600
reply-to:     andrea crain <acrain@idea-inc.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         andrea crain <acrain@idea-inc.com>
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the page doesn't seem to say much about it, just that they'll be there. i
wouldn't count on them mingling, though.


on fri, 20 dec 2002, karen weaver wrote:


> does anyone know what the cruise will offer in regard to the girls?
> will they perform?  how many times?  will we really be able to mingle
> with them?!~  that seems so unbelievable!
>
> new member, karen
>
> --
> do not quote other peoples' entire messages when replying to the list.
> indigo girls faq and indigo girls mailing list faq:
> http://www.pixelopolis.com/ig
>


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 12:34:41 -0500
reply-to:     moondust@gate.net
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         dreiser <moondust@gate.net>
subject:      madison tix: better second time around


my experience with tm was much better today. i scored two seats on the floor,
row c, right on the aisle. compared to the balcony seats i got yesterday
during the presale(which are now for sale, row d, seats 208 & 207 if anyone is
interested), i was happy.


but then just for grins i went back a few minutes later to see what single
seats might be available. low and behold a seat in aa (center section, amy
side) pops up. that was too good to pass up, so i grabbed it. of course now i
have a dilemma -- what oh what do i do with this extra front row ticket? ;)


deb


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 10:52:29 -0800
reply-to:     "janice l. monforton" <jmonfort@csci.clark.edu>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "janice l. monforton" <jmonfort@csci.clark.edu>
subject:      re: cruise with the girls.....
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um, i hate to be a party pooper kids, but given the political nature of
the girls, i don't feel that this is totally inappropriate to mention. i'm
sort of surprised that they're participating in this cruise (aside from
the obvious of it being all lesbionic of course). first off, cruises are
really devastating to the ocean ecosystem. granted all forms of
transportation are going to leave an impact, but this is the greater of
the evils. but the part that gets me even more is that it's a caribbean
cruise. what will be presented is a few select miles of beach manicured
for the tourists, run by white folks who get richer by the minute while
the rest of the population languishes in poverty. i mean really really
extreme poverty. also, the caribbean is an area with intense homophobia.
maybe not at those little resorts living in a bubble, but out there in the
other 99.9% of it there is too much struggle for basic rights/survival for
*all* the people that they don't have time to even think about being nice
to women or queers. it's a very complex world there and what you'll see is
not what is real. at any rate, i would feel very uncomfortable going and i
would be interested to know why amy and emily are doing it. i'm sure they
are looking at the community building aspects, but i don't know if that
would be enough for me.
-sam (and before anyone gets their frickin panties in a wad about me using
the word queer, i use it as a queer myself and as a way to include glbt
and anyone else with a different label in one fell swoop, so get over it)


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 10:56:20 -0800
reply-to:     "janice l. monforton" <jmonfort@csci.clark.edu>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "janice l. monforton" <jmonfort@csci.clark.edu>
subject:      re: cruise with the girls.....
in-reply-to:  <1e.52a0861.2b33ed37@aol.com>
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alright, as a post script, i see that the cruise is hitting the places in
the u.s. and south america - not places i would consider the actual
caribbean even if they do touch the sea - but i've still never been
comfortable with resorts. i'll take an ig concert anyday.
-sam


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 12:59:08 -0600
reply-to:     andrea crain <acrain@idea-inc.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         andrea crain <acrain@idea-inc.com>
subject:      re: cruise with the girls.....
in-reply-to:  <pine.hpx.4.10.10212201035490.14903-100000@csci.clark.edu>
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thanks, david foster wallace*. ;) it's good to keep in mind the political
and ethical implications of what we do.


is olivia a biological women only event like michfest? anyone know? where
do they draw the lesbian line?


-andrea


* read a supposedly fun thing i'll never do again. it's very, very funny.


on fri, 20 dec 2002, janice l. monforton wrote:


> um, i hate to be a party pooper kids, but given the political nature of
> the girls, i don't feel that this is totally inappropriate to mention. i'm
> sort of surprised that they're participating in this cruise (aside from
> the obvious of it being all lesbionic of course). first off, cruises are
> really devastating to the ocean ecosystem. granted all forms of
> transportation are going to leave an impact, but this is the greater of
> the evils. but the part that gets me even more is that it's a caribbean
> cruise. what will be presented is a few select miles of beach manicured
> for the tourists, run by white folks who get richer by the minute while
> the rest of the population languishes in poverty. i mean really really
> extreme poverty. also, the caribbean is an area with intense homophobia.
> maybe not at those little resorts living in a bubble, but out there in the
> other 99.9% of it there is too much struggle for basic rights/survival for
> *all* the people that they don't have time to even think about being nice
> to women or queers. it's a very complex world there and what you'll see is
> not what is real. at any rate, i would feel very uncomfortable going and i
> would be interested to know why amy and emily are doing it. i'm sure they
> are looking at the community building aspects, but i don't know if that
> would be enough for me.
> -sam (and before anyone gets their frickin panties in a wad about me using
> the word queer, i use it as a queer myself and as a way to include glbt
> and anyone else with a different label in one fell swoop, so get over it)
>
> --
> do not quote other peoples' entire messages when replying to the list.
> indigo girls faq and indigo girls mailing list faq:
> http://www.pixelopolis.com/ig
>


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 13:57:24 -0500
reply-to:     indigokare@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "karen r." <indigokare@aol.com>
subject:      re: more on the cruise
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a lot of people on the bbs have been talking about going.  i found out more information (i am a travel agent).  here is what i know.


http://www.indigogirls.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3180


:-) karen


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 14:23:41 -0800
reply-to:     jeremy <indigoboy@indigofans.com>
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i'm a boy and i'm a huge ig fan.  and right now i am hugely disappointed
that i don't have the option to take part in a cruise where ig will be
playing.  i am a feminist, a gender and sexuality studies major, and i
completely understand all of the social and political reasoning behind
the need for a space to call your own.  but i still feel left out.  and
i think i'm most disappointed in ig for not seeing (or not caring) that
this would exclude a lot of their audience, and with olivia for not
making this open to men also (my understanding is that they do have open
cruises as well).


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 14:45:25 -0500
reply-to:     tomboy1969@excite.com
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from:         dee yellowlees <tomboy1969@excite.com>
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when women can golf at augusta...boys can come on our cruises...k?


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 16:16:35 -0800
reply-to:     jeremy <indigoboy@indigofans.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         jeremy <indigoboy@indigofans.com>
subject:      re: the no men issue
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on friday, december 20, 2002, at 11:45 am, dee yellowlees wrote:


> when women can golf at augusta...boys can come on our cruises...k?
>


i don't agree with any separatist ideals.  and i don't feel that
supporting any separatist ideals will ever get any of us anywhere.


jeremy


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 16:20:10 -0500
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well...the thought of taking a "lesbian-only" vacation appeals to me very much...
and a lot of other lesbians too...that's why olivia has beeen/still is in business...
when you live in a world where everyone looks at you funny when hold your significant others hand...sit on the same side side of a booth at restaurant...or walk in the bathroom...you'll understand the need for these kinds of vacations...


d:)


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 22:25:14 +0100
reply-to:     ines <ines@schneebergerbaeck.at>
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----- original message -----
from: dee yellowlees <tomboy1969@excite.com>

> well...the thought of taking a "lesbian-only" vacation appeals to me very
much...
> and a lot of other lesbians too...that's why olivia has beeen/still is in
business...
> when you live in a world where everyone looks at you funny when hold your
significant others hand...sit on the same side side of a booth at
restaurant...or walk in the bathroom...you'll understand the need for these
kinds of vacations...


it's not about the vacation, it's the ig playing a women (lesbian) only gig.
i don't think that's a good thing to do.


ines


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 16:34:26 -0800
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from:         jeremy <indigoboy@indigofans.com>
subject:      re: the no men issue
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>
> when you live in a world where everyone looks at you funny when hold
> your significant others hand...sit on the same side side of a booth at
> restaurant...or walk in the bathroom...you'll understand the need for
> these kinds of vacations...
>


i do live in that world.  i'm gay, too.  i'm not somehow exempt from
homophobia because i'm male.  but that isn't the issue.  how would you
feel if ig gave a concert and said that no women were allowed in the
audience?


jer


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 16:39:03 -0500
reply-to:     tomboy1969@excite.com
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from:         dee yellowlees <tomboy1969@excite.com>
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people are excluded from girls shows all the time...y'all just don't hear about them...there are "students only shows" i've seen shows for coca cola...there was recently a show you had to be a member of a library association to go to...sometimes you can get around the exclusions...sometime you can't ...in this case if you a boy you can't...


this is not an issue about an indigo girls show...it's an issue about a cruise...it's not indigo girls policy that boys can't come it olivia's policy...so take it up with olivia...


they do a pretty good business in the "girls only" world...and i'm sure they thought the majority of the people that take their cruises would be interested in the girls as entertainment...


and while lesbians aren't excluded from taking a regular vacation it is nice not to have funny looks while on vacation with your significant other....these cruises are sometimes the only place where women get to be themselves...something that i'm sure is lost on all the people who say it's unfair their boyfriend can't come.
it's unfair that if i work for a company that offers insurance to spouses my partner can't be covered...it's unfair that i can't get married to another women...
so boycott...don't take an olivia cruise...there are plenty of others that will!


d:)


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 16:39:52 -0500
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guess i wouldn't go...or 'd get some real good drag going on...


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 21:42:13 +0000
reply-to:     sburk@attbi.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "s. b." <sburk@attbi.com>
subject:      re: the no men issue


this is one show we're talking about! you can book passage on another cruise
and you can attend another ig show. it's not like you're banned from ever
going on a cruise or attending a concert. if ig wanted to play a men's only
cruise (and there are those too) i'd say more power to them & i hope the guys
enjoy themselves!


i want to go on this cruise & i think it's great it's a women only cruise, but
that doesn't mean i hate being around men. i just want a break from them. :)
>how would you feel if ig gave a concert and said that no women were allowed
>in the audience?


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 16:45:16 -0500
reply-to:     amy swenson <amy_indigirl@yahoo.com>
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from:         amy swenson <amy_indigirl@yahoo.com>
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i agree that there should be no separatism in the world. and maybe
someday, this will be a possibility. however, if jenn and i could
afford to go on this, we would, and we support the girls decision to
play it.


nothing stinks more than being at an indigo girls concert and not
feeling comfortable holding hands, to dance, to be with each other the
way straight couples can be. and this happened this summer in edmonton.
(well, it is alberta after all!) we felt excluded at that particular
event, at least in contrast with other ig shows in california.


i just wish this issue wouldn't keep coming up, every time the girls
decide to play someplace that excludes a group of people. me, i feel
that it's their choice. they are smart enough to understand that
playing michigan, or an olivia event, or a college campus, excludes a
big portion of their audience. they must feel that the benefit of the
situation (and i doubt, in this case, it's monetary) overrides the
detractions.


happy holidays to those holiday-minded people. i miss a lot of you and
wish i could be around more often.


love,
amy
www.indigirl.com

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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 16:55:40 -0500
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did anyone else notice that the date is april 2004?


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 17:09:04 -0500
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2004? in the mean time, you can cruise with sonia & cindy. :)
http://www.belairtrav.com/disappear_fear.htm
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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 15:09:11 -0700
reply-to:     "riney, loralei" <loralei.riney@bannerhealth.com>
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yell said amy...miss you too...enjoy....


-----original message-----
from: amy swenson [mailto:amy_indigirl@yahoo.com]
sent: friday, december 20, 2002 2:45 pm
to: indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org
subject: re: olivia and lesbian-only spaces

i agree that there should be no separatism in the world. and maybe
someday, this will be a possibility. however, if jenn and i could
afford to go on this, we would, and we support the girls decision to
play it.


nothing stinks more than being at an indigo girls concert and not
feeling comfortable holding hands, to dance, to be with each other the
way straight couples can be. and this happened this summer in edmonton.
(well, it is alberta after all!) we felt excluded at that particular
event, at least in contrast with other ig shows in california.


i just wish this issue wouldn't keep coming up, every time the girls
decide to play someplace that excludes a group of people. me, i feel
that it's their choice. they are smart enough to understand that
playing michigan, or an olivia event, or a college campus, excludes a
big portion of their audience. they must feel that the benefit of the
situation (and i doubt, in this case, it's monetary) overrides the
detractions.


happy holidays to those holiday-minded people. i miss a lot of you and
wish i could be around more often.


love,
amy
www.indigirl.com

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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 18:06:52 est
reply-to:     sprdinosur@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         joe agueci <sprdinosur@aol.com>
subject:      the no men issue and that slop about the poor islanders
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in a message dated 12/20/02 2:46:10 pm eastern standard time,
tomboy1969@excite.com writes:

> when women can golf at augusta...boys can come on our cruises...k?


i'm glad someone else said it! i was going to but you beat me to it!!!


as for that whole editoral about the beaches and eco systems and poor people
and bla, bla, bla, my god,  party pooper is one thing, but that is so far
reaching for some kind of a petelsil to put yourself on.


how much money a year do you donate to those poor people, and you know what,
those poor people make plenty of money selling shells to toruist, without
tourist they would have only their fellow poor countrymen to sell sand in a
bag to, but thanks to those ships, they can sell it for much more to, as you
put it, white folks, on vacation. i bet if you polled 'em they say thank god
for the white folk owned crusie ships.


you are so sorry about who you are that you have to play hollier then thou
with vacation ships! weak, very, very weak.

and i'm still going on this trip! i ordered my bra, got my legs waxed called
my assemblyman and got a court order demanding i be allowed on it!!!! and as
an additional suprise... i'm driving the boat!!!


whoo whoo!


joe,
manhattan,ny


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 18:10:47 est
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in a message dated 12/20/02 4:21:11 pm eastern standard time,
tomboy1969@excite.com writes:

> sit on the same side side of a booth at restaurant


one questino one comment..... is sitting on the same side of the booth a
lesbian thing?


comment; sitting on the same side of a booth deserves being looked at weird


joe
manhattan,ny


ps. maybe i'm spoiled living in ny, but i have such a hard time when people
say "gay's get looked at weird when they hold hands"


not for nothing, just like a person who is missing a limb (not makeing a
paralelle here making a point) you don't see it much,so when you do you look.
it's not prejeduce, it's human nature.


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 18:12:05 est
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in a message dated 12/20/02 4:28:45 pm eastern standard time,
ines@schneebergerbaeck.at writes:

> it's not about the vacation, it's the ig playing a women (lesbian) only gig.
> i don't think that's a good thing to do.
>
>


rock on!


if they are their to play the woman only gig, i beleive that delves into the
world of hypocritical. are you looking for equality or do you want
segreagation?

joe
manhattan,ny


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 18:13:30 est
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from:         joe agueci <sprdinosur@aol.com>
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in a message dated 12/20/02 4:32:34 pm eastern standard time,
indigoboy@indigofans.com writes:

> i do live in that world.  i'm gay, too.  i'm not somehow exempt from
> homophobia because i'm male.  but that isn't the issue.  how would you
> feel if ig gave a concert and said that no women were allowed in the
> audience?
>
> jer
>


you said it jer


although as i posted before, i don't see that world ( it's known i am
straight) i wonder if you aren't looking for those who are looking at you
strange?


joe
manhattan,ny


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 18:16:39 est
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from:         joe agueci <sprdinosur@aol.com>
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in a message dated 12/20/02 4:39:41 pm eastern standard time,
tomboy1969@excite.com writes:

> this is not an issue about an indigo girls show...it's an issue about a
> cruise...it's not indigo girls policy that boys can't come it olivia's
> policy...so take it up with olivia...


this is compleatly hypocritical, if the girls are on the crusie they are
supporting it. so i don't know where the hell you are comming from with the
"take it up with olivia" amy and emily speak very freely about not being a
part of things that they don't beleive in, if they are in this, they are a
part of it, hense it's an issue to bring up to them, face to face if you get
the opportunity.


joe
manhattan,ny


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 18:17:27 est
reply-to:     sprdinosur@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         joe agueci <sprdinosur@aol.com>
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in a message dated 12/20/02 4:40:27 pm eastern standard time,
tomboy1969@excite.com writes:

> guess i wouldn't go...or 'd get some real good drag going on...


like me!


i need a roommate, wanna dress in drag with me and get the same leg waxing?
in case you haven't heard... i"m going!


joe
manhattan,ny


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 18:21:06 est
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from:         joe agueci <sprdinosur@aol.com>
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in a message dated 12/20/02 4:39:41 pm eastern standard time,
tomboy1969@excite.com writes:

> people are excluded from girls shows all the time...y'all just don't hear
> about them...there are "students only shows" i've seen shows for coca
> cola...there was recently a show you had to be a member of a library
> association to go to...sometimes you can get around the
> exclusions...sometime you can't ...in this case if you a boy you can't


ummm, students only will contain both sexes.... library members only will be
both sexes... but lesbians only... you know what that is one questinaire
short of excluding straight woman.


that makes me ask.... do they ask about sexual preference or are is being a
woman regardless to prefrefrnece enough to get you on the ship?  (for what
it's worth, i would really like to know this if anyone could help me out that
would rule!)


joe
manhattan,ny


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 18:23:09 est
reply-to:     sprdinosur@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         joe agueci <sprdinosur@aol.com>
subject:      re: olivia and lesbian-only spaces
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in a message dated 12/20/02 4:46:40 pm eastern standard time,
amy_indigirl@yahoo.com writes:

> nothing stinks more than being at an indigo girls concert and not
> feeling comfortable holding hands, to dance, to be with each other the
> way straight couples can be.


sorry, but if you can't feel comfortable at an indigo girls show with your
gay lover, then you are not comfortable with yourself as a gay person


joe
manhattan,ny


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from:         "catwho@comcast.net" <catwho@comcast.net>
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> and while lesbians aren't excluded from taking a regular vacation it
> is nice not to have funny looks while on vacation with your
> significant other....these cruises are sometimes the only place where
> women get to be themselves...


and i will add that if we lived in a perfect ideal world we wouldn't
need lesbian only vacations (or gay only or queer men only or ......)
i would love to be able to walk down the street in my southern
homophobic town holding my g/f's hand.  but i don't live in the
"perfect ideal world" and holding my g/f's hand would mean
harrassment and possible harm to me and my g/f.  in the ideal
world i could.  oh, wait, first i have to get a g/f :-d


michelle


"you can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake."
        - jeanette  rankin


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 18:28:54 -0500
reply-to:     bethany ward <ascoolasiam@msn.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         bethany ward <ascoolasiam@msn.com>
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> joe wrote:


sorry, but if you can't feel comfortable at an indigo girls show with your
> gay lover, then you are not comfortable with yourself as a gay person


joe,
i see that you feel very strongly about this but is it really necessary to
insult?
bethany, lurker
"there will be child care at the revolution."--ariel gore


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 18:29:42 -0500
reply-to:     brian clary <brianclary@comcast.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         brian clary <brianclary@comcast.net>
subject:      new amy ray tour date posted
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athens georgia, jan 18th
check out the site http://indigofans.com for details

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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 18:38:12 -0500
reply-to:     brian clary <brianclary@comcast.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         brian clary <brianclary@comcast.net>
subject:      another amy ray date - north carolina
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also,


carrboro nc
cat's cradle
http://indigofans.com for link to buy tix etc

http://indigofans.com
http://myindigotrades.com

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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 18:42:52 -0500
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another nc date:


amy ray & the butchies
tremont music hall
charlotte, nc
jan 17th
link to buy tix at http://indigofans.com in tour dates section

http://indigofans.com
http://myindigotrades.com


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 19:39:20 -0500
reply-to:     michael reynolds <mike@uppity-disability.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         michael reynolds <mike@uppity-disability.net>
subject:      re: the no men issue
x-to:         jeremy <indigoboy@indigofans.com>
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>
>i don't agree with any separatist ideals.  and i don't feel that
>supporting any separatist ideals will ever get any of us anywhere.


i surprisingly do - disabled only - defined by people with disabilities can
be incredibly supportive, and unique - this a place where not having bodily
function is a given - where people talk with computers or sign language -
it frees people from the social aspects forced by mainstream society...


this isnt a auguement against inclusion - quite the opposite - when
disabled people are segregated into nursing homes and instittions by states
and other federal policies, when special ed rooms are a thing of the past,
people with disabilities will still want shared experience - most people
arent raised by parents in the disabled or deaf culture...


so while i am a guy - i understand why they are doing the cruise - if i
were a female - i would definitely book tickets.

and - unfortunately - they are tons of shows the regular fan cant get into
- promo stuff, some of the 97 hte tour on reservations, the high priced
benefits...

but, hey - thats what bootlegs are for


mike r.


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 19:46:18 -0500
reply-to:     indigokare@aol.com
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ok, joe, i think you made your point. (several times)


i respect your opinion.  hell, i respect everyone's opinion on this issue since i am divided.  but we don't need to hear your snide remarks about others' feelings.  seriously, i don't think you were at that show and knew exactly how may was feeling.


it's ok to disagree on such issues, but personal attacks are never cool.


respectfully,
karen


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 20:12:35 est
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from:         joe agueci <sprdinosur@aol.com>
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in a message dated 12/20/02 7:46:41 pm eastern standard time,
indigokare@aol.com writes:

> i don't think you were at that show and knew exactly how may was feeling.
>


hey karen,


with all due respect, and i feel that a ton is due, i've been to about 12 or
13 shows, and i bet you've been to more then two or three.... is it just new
york, or is most, if not only half the audiance including the performers we
are there to see gay?


i also don't know, and welcome any information, if that was the only show she
had been to, but i would bet that would be a small and isolated incident.


i am going to stand strong with my comment. the last place to feel
uncomfortable with your gay lover, is at an ig show. i can not waiver on this
point.


respectfuly


joe
manhattan,ny


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from:         joe agueci <sprdinosur@aol.com>
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in a message dated 12/20/02 7:40:55 pm eastern standard time,
mike@uppity-disability.net writes:

> i surprisingly do - disabled only - defined by people with disabilities can
> be incredibly supportive, and unique - this a place where not having bodily
> function is a given - where people talk with computers or sign language -
> it frees people from the social aspects forced by mainstream society...
>
> this isnt a auguement against inclusion - quite the opposite - when
> disabled people are segregated into nursing homes and instittions by states
> and other federal policies, when special ed rooms are a thing of the past,
> people with disabilities will still want shared experience - most people
> arent raised by parents in the disabled or deaf culture...


i maybe alone here, and have always concidered myslef to have very high
reading comprehension (even though my spelling is horrible) but mike, i don't
understand at all what you are saying.


can you help me out?


joe
manhattan,ny


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 20:25:55 est
reply-to:     sprdinosur@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         joe agueci <sprdinosur@aol.com>
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in a message dated 12/20/02 6:29:29 pm eastern standard time,
ascoolasiam@msn.com writes:

> sorry, but if you can't feel comfortable at an indigo girls show with your
> > gay lover, then you are not comfortable with yourself as a gay person
>
> joe,
> i see that you feel very strongly about this but is it really necessary to
> insult?
> bethany, lurker
>


i don't see that as an insult. it's an observation. if it's taken as an
insult it's because i am hitting home to a point that you don't want hit.


i look at it this way ; in everyday street walking you have a small
percetnage of gay couples walking around, at an ig show at least half, and i
would venture to say 70-75% of the audiance is gay.


so... feeling uncomfortable with a gay lover at an ig show makes absoultly no
sence. i don't even think it would matter if you were in the buckle of the
bible belt, or an imaginary town called "we can't stand homo's ville" the ig
fan base and amy and emily's personal sexual prefrences have not been a
secrete for at least 15 years. ergo, being at an ig show with a gay lover (as
i repeat myself) and feeling uncomfortable makes absoultly no sence and makes
me wonder, where the basias of the discomfort comes from. i don't think it is
from the other audiance members, so it must come from within.


in the past, and in the future i will makes comments that may not meet the
general public with open arms, but this fact is dead on, and i will not
appolige or waiver from it at all, however, will entertain every rebutal to
my remarks.


joe
manhattan,ny


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 21:44:43 -0500
reply-to:     havanamoon@juno.com
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from:         havanamoon@juno.com
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you know, i would love to be able to take part in this cruise, and the
disappear fear cruise as well (perhaps more so, as sonia is a friend),
but as in the case of michigan, if my mere prescence would be
discomforting to others (who obviously don't know me - i've been outted
more times as a male lesbian than i have fingers and toes to count), then
i'll just have to work harder at the things i do.  but i also realize
that as a white male in this society, (even a sensitive, enlightened and
totally lovable one), there are many doors open to me that are denied to
others, so if i'm 'unfairly' excluded on occasion, so be it...


i've also been fortunate enough to be included in a lot of priceless
memories with some really wonderful women, like the feeling of
empowerment i felt (for all included) while participating in last year's
buffalo dyke march with a group of friends, and seeing the smiling faces
of other friends along the parade route - driving to brattleboro vt last
summer for the wedding of two of my closest friends, and staying in the
homes of other couples who only knew me by my words on this and other
lists...


i hope those of you that are able to go have a wonderful time, and that
those of you who are looking find what you seek.  i did...


peace, love, and holiday cheer,
tim

on fri, 20 dec 2002 17:29:54 -0500 "catwho@comcast.net"
<catwho@comcast.net> writes:
> > and while lesbians aren't excluded from taking a regular vacation
> it
> > is nice not to have funny looks while on vacation with your
> > significant other....these cruises are sometimes the only place
> where
> > women get to be themselves...
>
> and i will add that if we lived in a perfect ideal world we
> wouldn't
> need lesbian only vacations (or gay only or queer men only or
> ......)
>  i would love to be able to walk down the street in my southern
> homophobic town holding my g/f's hand.  but i don't live in the
> "perfect ideal world" and holding my g/f's hand would mean
> harrassment and possible harm to me and my g/f.  in the ideal
> world i could.  oh, wait, first i have to get a g/f :-d
>
>
>
>
>
> michelle
>
> "you can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake."
>         - jeanette  rankin


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 22:00:25 -0500
reply-to:     susan marine <susmarine@hotmail.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         susan marine <susmarine@hotmail.com>
subject:      seperatism and such
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my opinion is this:

it is ridiculous to compare 'women only events' like olivia cruises to 'men only events' like playing golf at augusta. men hold a disproportionate share of privilege and power in our culture, and thus, 'men only events' are not equivalent to 'women only events' in their dynamic or the power that is being levied. women, being the disempowered/relatively less privileged group, have 'women only events' to join in solidarity around our shared experience of oppression; men have 'men only events' to exult in their power in our culture. the same goes for anytime a dominant group exempts a subverted group from attending an event or participating in deciding their own fate. this happens every day in our culture and is reflected in the sentiments of our (thankfully) recently departed senate majority leader.

if you're getting ready to fire off an email telling me how whacked i am, i would argue that emily and amy probably agree with me; they have considered the politics of appearing at such events (like the michigan womyn's music festiv al, for example) and they feel at the current time there is  ample *justification* for playing at such events. why? because these events *empower* the group that is currently less empowered, and my guess is (it's only a guess), they want to be part of things that  exist to empower less privileged groups.

and please spare me the lecture that 'women and men are equal now and everyone knows that'. i am a rape crisis counselor and i can assuredly telll you, women and men have certainly not achieved equality. until that happens, a compelling argument can be made for providing opportunities for empowering groups who are currently less privileged in our culture so that equity can ve achieved. that can't happen until we as less empowered groups believe in our own power and understand effective ways to use it.

susan

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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 21:06:08 -0600
reply-to:     eburton@uchicago.edu
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from:         mandy burton <eburton@uchicago.edu>
subject:      it ain't equality, but it's progress
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something cheering... especially in light of our discussion today.


http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1216cutestcouple16.html

mandy


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no argument here.  well said...


tim


on fri, 20 dec 2002 22:00:25 -0500 susan marine <susmarine@hotmail.com>
writes:
if you're getting ready to fire off an email telling me how whacked i am,
i would argue that emily and amy probably agree with me; they have
considered the politics of appearing at such events (like the michigan
womyn's music festiv al, for example) and they feel at the current time
there is  ample *justification* for playing at such events. why? because
these events *empower* the group that is currently less empowered, and my
guess is (it's only a guess), they want to be part of things that  exist
to empower less privileged groups.
and please spare me the lecture that 'women and men are equal now and
everyone knows that'. i am a rape crisis counselor and i can assuredly
telll you, women and men have certainly not achieved equality. until that
happens, a compelling argument can be made for providing opportunities
for empowering groups who are currently less privileged in our culture so
that equity can ve achieved. that can't happen until we as less empowered
groups believe in our own power and understand effective ways to use it.
susan


the new msn 8: smart spam protection and 3 months free*. -- do not quote
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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 22:15:40 -0500
reply-to:     havanamoon@juno.com
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from:         havanamoon@juno.com
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the list of articles in the right hand column under the buzz is quite a
trip too...  ;-)>

on fri, 20 dec 2002 21:06:08 -0600 mandy burton <eburton@uchicago.edu>
writes:
> something cheering... especially in light of our discussion today.
>
> http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1216cutestcouple16.html
>
>
> mandy


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 22:33:39 -0500
reply-to:     fenwick <ignx@earthlink.net>
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sagacious susan of 81 concerts!


thank you for saying it so well.


kate


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 22:52:52 -0800
reply-to:     jeremy <indigoboy@indigofans.com>
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separatism sucks.  being excluded sucks.  the rampant sexism in this
country sucks.


but i still wanna go.


jer, who didn't mean to start such a heavy thread


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 22:55:02 -0500
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sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         jason hare <hare@optonline.net>
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my guess is that rcam/ig are going to, sooner or later, have some
official statement about the cruise (since we haven't heard anything
"official" yet from them, have we?).  until then, i'm going to just
say that i am very disappointed that ig would support an event that
knowingly excludes anybody.  something just doesn't sound right here.


i also am worried that people might be getting the impression that
they're going to be actually taking a cruise with ig, i.e. sitting
around with them on the pool deck, playing shuffleboard, becoming
lifelong friends, etc.  although it's probably not realistic, it's
probably an idealistic fantasy for a lot of people and i'd be worried
about the safety and privacy of amy, emily and their friends/family.


i'm going to stop there and wait and see what russell or ig have to
say.  i'm sure numerous people have e-mailed rc already.


jason


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doesn't anyone else think that probably they're
gonna fly in, do a show, and fly out at the next
port?  i just can't imagine amy & emily signing
on for a 'cruise with all our scariest fans'
(apologies to the non-scary ones).  i mean, after
you've been chased from your hotel more than
once, i'd think you're not really going to spend
too long in a place where there's no escape and
no privacy.


and i don't know that i'd put too much thought
into the whole 'this is too exclusive' thing.  i
mean, they're activists, but they're also artists
for hire, who happen to be lesbians, and for a
lesbian cruise company to hire them to play a
show just doesn't seem that nefarious or
far-fetched.


besides, it's really expensive $999 per person at
the cheapest - and you could make the same
argument that it excludes poor people.  i think
they play enough venues and give everyone of all
genders, economic, and geographic backgrounds an
ample opportunity to see them play.  for ig to
agree to do a show on a lesbian cruise ship i
just don't think deserves this much criticism.


my $.02.


tara


__________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 22:23:59 -0600
reply-to:     eburton@uchicago.edu
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         mandy burton <eburton@uchicago.edu>
subject:      re: to sum it all up
x-to:         jeremy <indigoboy@indigofans.com>
in-reply-to:  <d34db00d-14b0-11d7-a977-0003934a058a@indigofans.com>
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> separatism sucks.  being excluded sucks.  the rampant sexism in this
> country sucks.
>
> but i still wanna go.
>
> jer, who didn't mean to start such a heavy thread

if it makes you feel better, i'm built the right way and i can't go either.


mandy,
suffering under the yoke of insidious prejudice conferred upon the broke


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 23:49:43 est
reply-to:     mgsb@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         mgsb@aol.com
subject:      cruise discussions
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is it just me or can we take the cruise discussions about men not being
allowed off list???


sorry to be a grinch but my mailbox is getting full and i'm tired of hitting
delete.  don't intend on going on a cruise by the way.


peace
sandy


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=========================================================================
date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 23:53:24 -0500
reply-to:     jen lucero <jenlucero@comcast.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         jen lucero <jenlucero@comcast.net>
subject:      admin note:  oliva cruise et al
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hi folks,


whether or not you intend to go on the cruise, are excluded from going on the cruise, or are having any other issue with the girls' decision...


at this time, please take your comments and replies to private email.

if you would like to criticize their decision please feel free to email them at  igfan@mindspring.com

i know it's been a while since we had a rollicking-good flame war...but 'tis the season to be nice.

thank you.


jen


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 23:55:48 -0500
reply-to:     victoria.heckler@ppfa.org
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "<victoria heckler>" <victoria.heckler@ppfa.org>
subject:      re: cruise discussions
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personally, i am happy this list is getting some action again.  the cruise
is in fact an ig issue, so i don't think its inappropriate that it is
discussed on the list.  i think most have brought up excellent points on
both sides of the issue in a mutually respectful manner and i've really
enjoyed reading this discussion.


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 00:04:59 -0800
reply-to:     jeremy <indigoboy@indigofans.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         jeremy <indigoboy@indigofans.com>
subject:      a general request
mime-version: 1.0 (apple message framework v482)
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speaking of full mailboxes...if someone is replying to a message posted
to the list, and that reply is also to be posted to the list, there is
no need to send a copy of the reply directly to the person who posted
the original message.  i don't need to read it twice.


that said, i have appreciated the respect shown to all sides in this
discussion.  i think most people participating in this discussion have
been very grown up about the way they have expressed their points of
view.  thanks for the insights!


jeremy


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 00:07:28 -0500
reply-to:     havanamoon@juno.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         havanamoon@juno.com
subject:      re: cruise discussions
x-to:         mgsb@aol.com
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not to flame or belittle this writer in any way, but it always strikes me
as kinda strange, given the girls own political activism, that any
discussion of this nature always seems to elicit this kind of 'take it
off the list' response.  by past standards, this particular discussion
has been quite restrained, and i think that a lot of good points have
been made in the exchange of views...


i'm on a lot of lists.  i delete the majority of posts on all of them.
for me, it's not a big deal...


peace,
tim

on fri, 20 dec 2002 23:49:43 est mgsb@aol.com writes:
> is it just me or can we take the cruise discussions about men not
> being
> allowed off list???
>
> sorry to be a grinch but my mailbox is getting full and i'm tired of
> hitting
> delete.  don't intend on going on a cruise by the way.
>
> peace
> sandy


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 00:15:03 -0500
reply-to:     havanamoon@juno.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         havanamoon@juno.com
subject:      re: a general request
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that's because the list default is to reply to the sender, not the list,
so it's most convenient to 'reply to all'.  this time, i deleted the
senders address, then cut and pasted indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org from
the 'cc:' box into the 'send to:' box...


it's a lot more work than hitting thr 'delete' key...


(just kidding)
tim

on sat, 21 dec 2002 00:04:59 -0800 jeremy <indigoboy@indigofans.com>
writes:
> speaking of full mailboxes...if someone is replying to a message
> posted
> to the list, and that reply is also to be posted to the list, there
> is
> no need to send a copy of the reply directly to the person who
> posted
> the original message.  i don't need to read it twice.


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 00:25:50 -0500
reply-to:     anna creech <creechal@spamcop.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         anna creech <creechal@spamcop.net>
subject:      re: the no men issue
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quoting joe agueci <sprdinosur@aol.com>:


> amy and emily speak very freely about not being a
> part of things that they don't beleive in, if they are in this, they are a
> part of it, hense it's an issue to bring up to them, face to face if you get
> the opportunity.


maybe they believe in a time and a place for lesbian-only (black-only,
disabled-only, etc.) events?  and maybe, just maybe, they are a couple of
lesbians who would enjoy spending some time in a lesbian-only environment.  i
enjoy doing that myself on occasion.  what i think is wrong is wanting to make
that the norm.  mix and mingle, but sometimes you just need some space for
yourself.


imho, separatism is only a problem when it becomes your way of life.


anna
do you think the indigo girls might come do a show on a houseboat?  i could
afford that!


"i think that librarians get a bum rap. they're constantly represented as
these staid do-gooders, hair in a bun, glasses on the nose. in fact,
librarians have better eyesight than most professionals."  --alan kurzweil
http://www.eclecticlibrarian.net | good music found here: mp3.com/wishingchair


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 15:26:37 +1000
reply-to:     amanda tink <atink@uq.net.au>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         amanda tink <atink@uq.net.au>
subject:      re: the no men issue
in-reply-to:  <175.13cffcb6.2b351aa4@aol.com>
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hi joe, mike, and all,


joe wrote:
> i maybe alone here, and have always concidered myslef to have very high
> reading comprehension (even though my spelling is horrible) but mike, i don't
> understand at all what you are saying.
>
> can you help me out?


so, i'm sure mike's more than capable of explaining his e-mail, but i
completely identified with what he wrote, so i feel qualified to have a go
at helping you out.


mike wrote:
> > i surprisingly do - disabled only - defined by people with disabilities can
> > be incredibly supportive, and unique - this a place where not having bodily
> > function is a given - where people talk with computers or sign language -
> > it frees people from the social aspects forced by mainstream society...


if you're a person with a disability there's tremendous pressure on you to
have your disability affect you as little as possible - you should be able
to walk fast, think fast, know where "over there" is, speak quickly and in
a way that people are used to, not do stuff a little out of the ordinary
like have a seizure, not be scared by stuff that seems ordinary to everyone
else, etc.  if you've had your disability since birth, or if you've needed
any professional help to adjust to a disability, you'll most likely have
this re-inforced a thousand times over: you might be told you have to work
hard at physio so you can walk as fast as everyone else; you might be told
that you should mix with other children instead of having friends who are
disabled; you might be taken to speech classes so the rest of the world
doesn't have to put a little effort into understanding what you say, even
though you have no idea what you sound like; you might have your family or
friends treat you like a child or make fun of you in public because they're
embarrassed by the fact that you can't understand something that seems
obvious to many people.  in short, if you're a person with a disability,
fitting in, being as "normal" as possible, is supposed to be your highest
priority.


however, if you have a disability people assume you can't do things, even
things that are not even relevant to your disability.  for example, i'm
blind so somehow people think that means i can't hear, can't walk up or
down stairs, can't tie my shoelaces, can't use a computer, can't walk
around my own house without being guided by someone, can't understand
speech at normal speed, can't enjoy a movie, etc.  i learned print at an
early age and can write notes to people that they have no trouble reading,
but i'm constantly asked if i can sign my own name or, even worse, people
often just assume that i can't.


also, if your a person with a disability, you're automatically entitled to
less privacy and less respect than everyone else.  if i had a dollar for
every time someone said to me "can't you get someone to read it to you?" or
"can't you get someone to help you fill these forms in?" i could easily
book a cruise with the ig and pay for you all to go.  i often have my
conversations with other blind people interrupted by people who think there
question about where we're going, or how old my guide dog is, is so
important that they don't even need to wait for a break in the
conversation, let alone introduce themselves.


on top of all that, if you happen to not have a problem with the fact that
you have a disability or, heaven forbid, be proud of your disability,
you're a truly horrible person - firstly because you're no longer the
object of pity that people would like you to be; secondly because people
can't imagine themselves being happy in your position so they don't think
you should be happy, thirdly because you aren't beside yourself with
gratitude every time someone does something for you that should really be
just an act of common curtesy.


so yeah, it's nice to not have to deal with all that occasionally.


mike wrote:
> > this isnt a auguement against inclusion -


inclusion is at it's most basic level, including disabilities within
society.  but to give it more context, there's been a long history of
sending people with disabilities to schools where there are only other
people with disabilities, or leaving them in institutions, so there is no
contact between them and the rest of the world, and so on.  these days that
gets referred to as segregation.  there was a time of what was called
integration where, for example, children with disabilities are sent to a
school for children without disabilities that has a "special education
unit" attached.  there is now a big push by people with disabilities and
their supporters towards inclusion.  inclusion means, no segregation, no
integration; it means that support for people with disabilities should come
from within the system itself, rather than being separate, or tacked on to
the side.


mike wrote:
> quite the opposite - when
> > disabled people are


i'm guessing that's meant to be aren't.


mike wrote:
> segregated into nursing homes and instittions by states
> > and other federal policies, when special ed rooms are a thing of the past,
> > people with disabilities will still want shared experience -


i think this is fairly self-explanatory but, you know, it's that whole
"knowing that you're not the only one" thing.


mike wrote:
> most people
> > arent raised by parents in the disabled or deaf culture...


this might be further explained by adding another sentence like: so they
don't grow up in the supportive and unconditionally-accepting environment
that having a parent with a disability often provides.


joe, your message is a good demonstration of why spaces created by people
with disabilities for people with disabilities are important.  most people
aren't even aware of these issues, and don't question their own attitudes.
of course, that's not a criticism, just an observation.


i hope this all makes sense.


amanda.


--
amanda tink: atink@uq.net.au  icq: 43634688
it took a long time to become the thing i am to you
and you won't tear it apart
without a fight without a heart  (from become you by amy ray)
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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 00:30:20 -0500
reply-to:     anna creech <creechal@spamcop.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         anna creech <creechal@spamcop.net>
subject:      re: cruise discussions
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quoting mgsb@aol.com:


> is it just me or can we take the cruise discussions about men not being
> allowed off list???
>
> sorry to be a grinch but my mailbox is getting full and i'm tired of hitting
> delete.  don't intend on going on a cruise by the way.

i for one have been enjoying this non-flame discourse on social issues directly
relating to the indigo girls, but if jen says so, we must stop discussing
anything more serious than what they wore at the last concert and which songs
they didn't play and how hard it was to get good seats....

anna


"i think that librarians get a bum rap. they're constantly represented as
these staid do-gooders, hair in a bun, glasses on the nose. in fact,
librarians have better eyesight than most professionals."  --alan kurzweil
http://www.eclecticlibrarian.net | good music found here: mp3.com/wishingchair


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 23:42:49 -0600
reply-to:     greg flamer <gflame@ameritech.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         greg flamer <gflame@ameritech.net>
subject:      re: seperatism and such
in-reply-to:  <f49x4h1eurrimzsgcsi00019921@hotmail.com>
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i agree and find it interesting that the take it off the list requests have
come in already.  this has quite a bit of igc and the discussion, while
generating a huge volume of mail, is only a day or two old.  it's when it
drags out for weeks and is nigc that i feel it appropriate to move it off.
but i also want to respect jen l's request as the list administrator.  so i
will make just a few comments that are very ig related and move on.


> women, being the disempowered/relatively less privileged group, have
> 'women only events' to join in solidarity around our shared experience of
> oppression


sue makes good points here and i believe she and i may have had a similar
discussion several years back when this came up.  the above statement makes
sense. what i've never understood about such events (men or women only
spaces) is that it excludes even those who may be just as supportive or just
as privy to the "shared experience of oppression".  can a man be supportive
of a women's rights cause?  i say absolutely and continue to be insulted by
the exclusion.  saying i don't understand the experience is unfair.  how
will we understand if we can't even be included in the rally or event or
whatever.


>  i
> would argue that emily and amy probably agree with me; they have considered
> the politics of appearing at such events (like the michigan womyn's music
> festiv al, for example) and they feel at the current time there is  ample
> *justification* for playing at such events.


maybe they have changed there minds but i recall their earlier refusal to
participate in the womyn's fest and i admired them for it.  they preach
about inclusion and equality but go to exclusionary events.  it's
hypocritical.  i continue to be confused by their support of these events.
i've also felt that ig's male fans have always gotten the shaft.  amy said
on the uptown lounge video that she loves the support from male fans but
clearly acknowledges how different the female support has been.  it's just
not like them to label and put people in boxes so it confuses me.


>women
> and men have certainly not achieved equality. until that happens, a compelling
> argument can be made for providing opportunities for empowering groups who are
> currently less privileged in our culture so that equity can be achieved. that
> can't happen until we as less empowered groups believe in our own power and
> understand effective ways to use it.


truth!  i stand by my question of why male supporters are being denied.
true that i'm not dying to go on a cruise with ig but my argument has always
been that i'd at least like to be allowed if i did want to go.  there'd
probably be no men that showed up but it's principle which i thought ig were
based upon.--greg


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 00:38:33 est
reply-to:     indigokare@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "karen r." <indigokare@aol.com>
subject:      re: cruise discussions
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in a message dated 12/20/2002 9:30:43 pm pacific standard time,
creechal@spamcop.net writes:

> i for one have been enjoying this non-flame discourse on social issues
> directly
> relating to the indigo girls, but if jen says so, we must stop discussing
> anything more serious than what they wore at the last concert and which
> songs
> they didn't play and how hard it was to get good seats....


me too!  this discussion remindes me of the days when this list was very
active!


:-) karen
*****
"they're sending soldiers to distant places, xs and os on someone's drawing
board
like green and plastic, but with human faces, and they want to tell you it's
a merciful
sword; but with all the blood newly dried in the deserts, can we not
fertilize the land with something else?  there is no nation, by god exempted,
lay down your weapons
and love your neighbor as yourself..."
  ~~ emily saliers, indigo girls


"now i'm running to the end of the earth, and i'm swimming to the edge of the
sea, and i'm laughing, i'm under a starry sky, this world was meant for me,
don't bury me, carry me"
~~ amy ray, indigo girls


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 01:06:16 est
reply-to:     indigotraveller@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         indigotraveller@aol.com
subject:      re: cruise discussions
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as jason will tell you from who world, i'm adamently opposed to off-topic
discussions taking place on-list.  however, like victoia said, i do think
it's reasonably on-topic, and i've enjoyed the friendly, engaged debate.


just my 2 cents.


lauren


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 01:17:28 -0500
reply-to:     madonajk <madonajk@alpha.delta.edu>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         madonajk <madonajk@alpha.delta.edu>
subject:      re: the no men issue
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the whole thing here is this
if they were also doing male only shows that would be differnt but their not.
this is seperatism, something they are against.
you want an all women show thats fine
but then also do an all man show
thats equal
doing an all woman show and then a show for everyone is not equal


someone brought up the whole thing about college shows
thier is a big differnce between only folks who go to that college
( something their paying for the privilage to do)because it is for both men
and women straight or gay black or white native american or chinese, the
distinction being these folks paid to go to this college so this is an icing
on their cake


someone brought up the golf course thing. i agree with you there i think thats
stupid. they should have female golfers.
how long will it be before we have
lesbian pride parade
gay pride parade
where only those of that gender can show up
or better yet just the pride parade saying oh your straight sorry you cant be
here.


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 01:24:14 -0500
reply-to:     madonajk <madonajk@alpha.delta.edu>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         madonajk <madonajk@alpha.delta.edu>
subject:      re: cruise discussions
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if were going to take the cruise discussion off the list then take the whole
cruise off the list
not just the part about no men but the whole thing
no reviews of the cruise no info of the cruise
because otherwise just like the cruise its seperatist.
if we can not discuss the no men on the cruise then for one do not want to
hear anything about the cruise because its like a slap in the face
oh that show was so great you missed it
oh u mean the one i wasnt allowed to go to.
this has been a tame discussion but it seems like everytime one of these
events come up on the list soon as we discuss the no men aspect of it were
basically told to shut up.
how can we learn from each other and keep from being seperate if we dont
discuss and talk and see viewpoints
if your looking through a kalidescope the only view your seeing is your own
no matter how cracked or how any sections their appears its still 1 view.


>===== original message from victoria.heckler@ppfa.org =====
>personally, i am happy this list is getting some action again.  the cruise
>is in fact an ig issue, so i don't think its inappropriate that it is
>discussed on the list.  i think most have brought up excellent points on
>both sides of the issue in a mutually respectful manner and i've really
>enjoyed reading this discussion.
>
>--
>do not quote other peoples' entire messages when replying to the list.
>indigo girls faq and indigo girls mailing list faq:
>http://www.pixelopolis.com/ig


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 01:23:43 est
reply-to:     sprdinosur@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         joe agueci <sprdinosur@aol.com>
subject:      re: cruise discussions
x-to:         victoria.heckler@ppfa.org
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in a message dated 12/20/02 11:56:13 pm eastern standard time,
victoria.heckler@ppfa.org writes:

> personally, i am happy this list is getting some action again.  the cruise
> is in fact an ig issue, so i don't think its inappropriate that it is
> discussed on the list.  i think most have brought up excellent points on
> both sides of the issue in a mutually respectful manner and i've really
> enjoyed reading this discussion.
>


here, here!


joe
manhattan,ny


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 01:48:29 est
reply-to:     sprdinosur@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         joe agueci <sprdinosur@aol.com>
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my nickel....


we all respect jen's wishes, and aside from this generating tons of mail, i
respectifuly disagree with the idea it should stop.


it's a great topic, no one is getting hurt or angry. it is very igc and hit
the core of our fandom. one of the things we love about amy and emily is
their integrity, and this tends to violate that intregity.


i think for the most part we're all trying to come to terms with what are
they saying by doing this gig? so each of us offers up our own $0.02 on what
we think they might mean, becuase it can't be....it just can't be what it
looks like.


sorry to keep it going jen, but i don't think i'd be being honest with myself
or fellow ig fans as a fan or list member if i didn't write this post. no
disrespect ment.


joe
manhattan,ny


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date:         fri, 20 dec 2002 23:03:33 -0800
reply-to:     joy <neversaythat@starstream.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         joy <neversaythat@starstream.net>
subject:      amy ray on women only shows....
in-reply-to:  <qoi008obkd0g92004y@mail.delta.edu>
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hey everyone...


there have been some comments that ig are totally against separatism,
that they would not really support a show that would exclude men, etc
....thought i'd send amy ray's response to a question on that topic that
someone asked her during the mother jones q&a that was held in august
2001.  the question asked was specifically in regard to playing at
michigan womyn's fest, another women-only event, but it is probably just
as relevant to this discussion...joy:-d


***


re: exclusion vs. inclusion


ar: michigan is an exceptional time and place, and it's for women, and i
support that. if i every show i played was only for women, i would
understand why a guy would say, "hey, why am i being left out?" but it's
one show, all year long! that's it. and "excluding men" isn't the right
way to look at it. the way to look at it is, "this is a safe space for
women." it's hard for people who aren't in their shoes to understand the
necessity for that. it's something i didn't understand a long time ago,
but i do now.


women need it, they need a safe space. it's still a man's world. there's
still so much domestic violence against women, so much rape and beatings
and muggings and sexism and homophobia -- it's just scary. women go to
this place, they talk about how to deal with all this, talk about how to
be stronger, so they can go back into the world and achieve the things
they want to achieve. and it's honestly hard to do that in a space
that's mixed sometimes. for me, i prefer to live most of my life in a
mixed space. i always will, that's the kind of person i am. i'm not
really a separatist. but i think there's a place for this, and it needs
to happen. and i think a man's response, i would hope, would be
supportive of it, and be like, "hey, that's really cool." it's hard for
a man to understand, i think, but if you just look around you and really
try to observe the dynamic between men and women in this world still,
it's pretty amazing. you're still better off if you're a man as far as
the power structure goes, and until that changes there needs to be a
place for women to be.


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 01:15:52 -0600
reply-to:     eburton@uchicago.edu
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         mandy burton <eburton@uchicago.edu>
subject:      re: cruise discussions
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quoting joe agueci <sprdinosur@aol.com>:


> my nickel....
>
> we all respect jen's wishes, and aside from this generating tons of mail, i
> respectifuly disagree with the idea it should stop.


you know, that's the first thing you've said all day that i agree with. i'm
glad to have read those earlier posts (both yours and other people's) and i'd
really like to read more. i do think this is on-topic, for all the reasons
other people have given already.


jen, could you please give us the ok to go on with this? i know you're just
trying to do right by the list - and we've certainly made that difficult for
you in the past - but this isn't really off-topic, and it isn't a flame war.
far from off-topic, in fact; i think this moment of "take it offlist, please"
is part of what our problem has been these past few years. we have several
people engaged in a respectful discussion of an ig-related topic, but some
other people aren't interested in it, so it gets shut down. well, you know
what? part of being in a community is understanding that sometimes stuff
happens that you think is boring. you don't want to talk about cruises? skip
those discussions. nobody's making you read them. but please, don't play
the "respect' card to have it taken offlist; it is equally disrespectful to
force a lively discussion between multiple parties out of its natural forum.


i apologize for being out of temper, but i have been continually disappointed
by the lack of real engagement and fellow-feeling on this list, and i want it
back. anybody who wants to flame me, please hit 'reply' and not 'reply to all.'


mandy


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 02:27:51 -0500
reply-to:     havanamoon@juno.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         havanamoon@juno.com
subject:      re: amy ray on women only shows....
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i don't know why anyone should have a problem with amy's reasoning.  i
know i don't...


why do we, as a society (in general) delight in building up icons and
then seemingly take even greater delight in tearing them down when they
fail to live up to our unreal expectations?  we're all humans, all
fallible...


amy and emily, via their music and activism, and the various friends i've
met through this list, have brought immeasurable joy to my life over the
past 10 or 12 years.  why should i begrudge them, or anyone, this
opportunity?


thanks for posting amy's response.


peace,
tim


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 03:24:00 -0500
reply-to:     tisara@webworqs.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "i am 32 flavors and then some..." <tisara@webworqs.com>
subject:      ig and the cruise and the music and the space...
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hey all!  just a couple things:


1.  the way i avoid polluting the list with repeats of previous posts
is just by clicking on the actual address for the list and entering
my own subject line - and that's actually a lot easier than clicking
reply to all and having to delete and cut and paste.  just a thought.


2.  thank gawd for this thread.  i've been on this list for...i
dunno...a number of years, and the majority of the time i don't read
posts.  usually it's because i don't have the time or the focus or
the interest.  but i logged into my account and there were over 100
messages from when i checked this afternoon, the bulk of them being
about the cruise.  and i read every single one of them.  *grins* and
i enjoyed the discussion, and i felt moved to post more than the
birthday list every week :)  it feels good to really feel part of the
list again instead of some kind of bystander.  that being said...


3.  i am going on the cruise.  talked to the rep and secured my place
today.  i am by no means rich, but this is a dream for me, and i will
tell you why.  my gram went on a cruise a number of years ago and
told my mom and i that we should go.  we had planned on it - but my
mom passed away before we could.  so this is like fulfilling a
promise to her in a way - although i don't know that we'd be going on
a lesbian cruise if she were alive :)  in any case, i knew that when
the right cruise came along i would know it and i would do it and i
would make it work somehow.  this trip just fell into my lap, and
with the offering a monthly payment plan, i can do this much more
easily - and i am doing it by myself for the moment.  and i am wicked
excited.


4.  amy and emily on the cruise>> dude, it may just be a heck of a
lot simpler than what it has evolved into on the list.  i was
thinking that even big badass dyke rock stars need a break too - so
you sign up to do a show and chill out for a day or so, and then go
back on the road.  i certainly don't think that i will be hanging out
with them at all.  what i think is that i will have a week off work
to do things i haven't done yet and i will get to see 1, maybe 2
really great shows - and i haven't seen them in a really long time
(although they are coming here - iowa city - in february *hee*).
everyone needs time to kick back and have a good time - why should
a&e be exceptions to that rule?


whatever the case is, i think it's cool that they are doing it - one
more show is one more show.  i don't bitch when they focus on a
section of the country that i am not in while on tour.  i just
say, "maybe i will catch them at another show."


try that - maybe it will feel better than getting all upset over
practically nothing at all. :)


*mwah dahlings*
audra (aka birthday goddess extraordinaire) :)


"when i say 'i will be true to you' i am drawing a quiet space
beyond the reach of other desires.  no-one can legislate love;
it cannot be given orders or cajoled into service.  love belongs
to itself, deaf to pleading and unmoved by violence.  love is
not something you can negotiate.  love is the one thing stronger
than desire and the only proper reason to resist temptation."
         -- jeanette winterson, _written on the body_ (p. 77-78)


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 09:54:33 -0800
reply-to:     nichole livengood <niclive@bellsouth.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         nichole livengood <niclive@bellsouth.net>
subject:      boys in a girls world
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my husband doesn't listen to my music.  but occasionally i can drag him =
to a concert with me.  recently we attended a melissa ferrick concert.  =
he was very impressed with her adament views about acceptance... gay, =
straight, male, female... she wants everyone to be able to come to her =
shows and have a good time.  i don't think the indigo girls =
intentionally alienate any specific group of people... i don't think =
they are not including men.  i think that they are choosing to play on a =
cruise for women only.
merry christmas!
(maybe they'll do an all straight gig soon)
nic


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 10:42:04 est
reply-to:     rainnriver@aol.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "<sarah t. rosenblum>" <rainnriver@aol.com>
subject:      re: amy ray on women only shows....
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actually, in an issue of girlfriends amy said that she was 'niave' when she
was first against women oinly events and that women do need their own space.


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 11:15:52 -0500
reply-to:     anna creech <creechal@spamcop.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         anna creech <creechal@spamcop.net>
subject:      chartreuse girls
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hello again!


as some of you may know, i have been maintaining an online archive of lyrics to
indigo girls song parodies since i first learned html in 1997-ish.  in the past
few months, i have been moving the archive over to my first "real" web host with
my very own domain name.  i've also re-vamped the look a little, but it's still
basically the same old thing.


there are quite a few christmas-themed parodies (most written by kim fischer)
and a surprisingly significant number of x-files themed parodies.  i welcome you
all to come and take a look, and contribute your own creativity.


oh, and if anyone here uses a screen reader or other similar aids, please let me
know if this site is completely non-functional for you.  i have been
contemplating providing stripped-down text-only non-tables versions of the index
pages, at least.


here's the url:  http://www.eclecticlibrarian.net/chartreusegirls/


anna


"i think that librarians get a bum rap. they're constantly represented as
these staid do-gooders, hair in a bun, glasses on the nose. in fact,
librarians have better eyesight than most professionals."  --alan kurzweil
http://www.eclecticlibrarian.net | good music found here: mp3.com/wishingchair


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 11:25:24 -0500
reply-to:     anna creech <creechal@spamcop.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         anna creech <creechal@spamcop.net>
subject:      (nigc) michelle malone - "homegrown"
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hello, list!


i hope this is an appropriate post - i know that there are a number of michel
malone fans on the list, and maybe a few interested but not quite a fan types.


i do a weekly radio show on the university of kentucky's student radio station,
wrfl, called the "estrogen nation".  it's all mainly independent female
musicians, and i try to play a variety of genres.  anyway, i get quite a few
submissions from musicians from all over, and just this week michelle malone
sent me her new cd as well as "homegrown".  i already own my own personal copy
of the cd, and the station has one, as well.  so, if anyone on this list would
like it, you can have it for the cost of postage.  if no one is interested, i'll
find someone else to pass it along to.


oh, and if you're a dj, too, that'd be a big bonus!


anna


"i think that librarians get a bum rap. they're constantly represented as
these staid do-gooders, hair in a bun, glasses on the nose. in fact,
librarians have better eyesight than most professionals."  --alan kurzweil
http://www.eclecticlibrarian.net | good music found here: mp3.com/wishingchair


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 12:38:38 -0500
reply-to:     madonajk <madonajk@alpha.delta.edu>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         madonajk <madonajk@alpha.delta.edu>
subject:      re: [solarwind] b7 christmas
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and maybe they will do an all male gig soon
see point being missed

my husband doesn't listen to my music. but occasionally i can drag him to a
concert with me. recently we attended a melissa ferrick concert. he was very
impressed with her adament views about acceptance... gay, straight, male,
female... she wants everyone to be able to come to her shows and have a good
time. i don't think the indigo girls intentionally alienate any specific group
of people... i don't think they are not including men. i think that they are
choosing to play on a cruise for women only.
merry christmas!
(maybe they'll do an all straight gig soon)
nic


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 12:21:59 -0600
reply-to:     barbara bordner <ritesofpassage9@webtv.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         barbara bordner <ritesofpassage9@webtv.net>
subject:      re: cruise discussions
x-to:         indigokare@aol.com
in-reply-to:  "karen r." <indigokare@aol.com>'s message of sat, 21 dec 2002
              00:38:33 est
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indigokare writes:
<<this discussion reminds me of the days when this list was very
active>>


that's what i say! good reading material too.


take care.


barb


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 12:57:21 -0600
reply-to:     barbara bordner <ritesofpassage9@webtv.net>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         barbara bordner <ritesofpassage9@webtv.net>
subject:      re; cruise discussion
x-to:         eburton@uchicago.edu
in-reply-to:  mandy burton <eburton@uchicago.edu>'s message of sat, 21 dec 2002
              01:15:52 -0600
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i'm very glad that this discussion is taking place because i've noticed
over the last  few years that the volume of this list has gone down,
making things seem rather slow.


and for those who don't wish to read it,this is just a suggestion there
are other choices besides hitting "delete," that don't involve opening
your email...like getting the "bounce version." that way you click only
on what's interesting to you. it's what i do and i really like it a lot.


third, i've also noticed a tendency to shut the lid on topics that are
borderline nigc, or are potentially controversial even before it becomes
a full-fledge discussion. and that is my concern.


the faq states that such discussions are okay as long as they are only
on for like ..(two days is it?  48 hours? whatever.) anyways this
discussion isn't even a day old, and already we're being asked to take
it off.


jen, i respect you for the job you do on this list, i'm sure it's very
difficult and time consuming, and stressful. but i think this issue of
shutting down topics  so early in the game  when it's not
even a flame war needs to be looked at.


peace everyone, and please don't flame me.
barb


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 14:21:29 -0500
reply-to:     amy swenson <amy_indigirl@yahoo.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         amy swenson <amy_indigirl@yahoo.com>
subject:      re: olivia and lesbian-only spaces
x-to:         sprdinosur@aol.com
in-reply-to:  <4f.289f3f4f.2b35005d@aol.com>
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> sorry, but if you can't feel comfortable at an indigo girls show with
> your
> gay lover, then you are not comfortable with yourself as a gay person


you know what joe? i don't need to justify to you or anyone else how
comfortable we are as gay people.


but i do need to say that their appearance was at the edmonton folk
festival, and that 98% of the audience were not there to see the indigo
girls. i saw about 10 other fans out of 20,000 people.


i think there's nothing wrong with showing my affection for my partner
in public, but i was not comfortable being as close to her there as i
was at the many other indigo girls concerts i've been fortunate enough
to attend over the past 10 years.


my point was that sometimes they play venues or festivals where it's
blatantly not ok to be who you are. i don't think i need to repeat any
of the many lesbian slurs i heard throughout that weekend. it just
speaks to the fact that the world isn't where i'd like it to be just
yet.


--amy, a very out and proud dyke.


______________________________________________________________________
post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca


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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 14:29:13 -0500
reply-to:     bethany ward <ascoolasiam@msn.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         bethany ward <ascoolasiam@msn.com>
subject:      re: cruise discussions
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>indigokare writes:
><<this discussion reminds me of the days when this list was very
>active>>


you're comment struck me because i joined this list in '96 as a lurker and i
remember my inbox filled with 100s of mail a day. i unsubscribed after a few
years to marry and have babies and when i returned just a few weeks i
thought, "where is everyone?"  what happened?  where is twink and sheryln?
so...what did happen?
~~bethany
"there will be child care at the revolution."--ariel gore

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date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 12:08:14 -0800
reply-to:     "janice l. monforton" <jmonfort@csci.clark.edu>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "janice l. monforton" <jmonfort@csci.clark.edu>
subject:      re: the no men issue and that slop about the poor islanders
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like many people, i do what i can to maybe help out the world just a
little. and then there are those who get mad at people like me for
trying, and they declare that since we haven't saved every single person
and creature, we are therefore idiots who shouldn't put out the effort to
try or to encourage others to try. in fact i feel very comfortable with
what i do, while at the same time acknowledge that i can perhaps
do even more. i am also still part of consumerist society and am not
perfect nor do i aspire to be perfect. the one thing that does make me
feel sorry, though not about myself, is when i come across someone who is
so incredibly intent on stopping others from taking a moral stand that
they go out of their way to call us self-righteous. i always wonder what
kind of self-righteous assholes they must think the great leaders of
social change were. no, i do not send money to poor people in other
countries because there are plenty of people within my own community who
need help and i have decided that i will give my resources to them. that
does not mean that i cannot feel empathy for those out there who are in a
bad situation and decide that i will not support the social structures
that do not allow them a chance to make things better for themselves. that
is a choice for everyone to make. i don't see why it should make someone
so incredibly irate to hear that i have made my own choice based on
knowledge i have gained and wish to share with others. and to attack me
personally for it shows how much it bothers you, which i just do not
understand. i mean, you don't agree with the cruise either, albeit for the
exclusion of men, yet you are still bound and determinded to declare
that you would give them your money if you could sneak on the ship (btw,
waxing might make you stand out more since dykes like me prefer not to
shave - just a little helpful hint to show that there's no hard feelings).
i know i will not change the minds of you and people like you, but i have
to remind myself that i'm glad you're around because i know that everytime
i piss off one you, it means i must be doing pretty good. so just to
recap, kids, just about everything we do has its problematic aspects, and
as long as you know what they are (and this is a key point, that you have
the knowledge rather than remain blissfully ignorant) and have decided
that it's okay with you, then all is well. but don't give the rest of us
crap because of our own decisions.
-sam
p.s. just so you'll have fuel for your next attack on me, let me tell you
that as well as not going on cruises, i also don't eat meat, i ride the
bus often, i'm anti war, i refuse to shop at walmart, and i always point
out how sexist our society is. have fun with that.


> how much money a year do you donate to those poor people, and you know what,
> those poor people make plenty of money selling shells to toruist, without
> tourist they would have only their fellow poor countrymen to sell sand in a
> bag to, but thanks to those ships, they can sell it for much more to, as you
> put it, white folks, on vacation. i bet if you polled 'em they say thank god
> for the white folk owned crusie ships.
>
> you are so sorry about who you are that you have to play hollier then thou
> with vacation ships! weak, very, very weak.
>
>
> and i'm still going on this trip! i ordered my bra, got my legs waxed called
> my assemblyman and got a court order demanding i be allowed on it!!!! and as
> an additional suprise... i'm driving the boat!!!
>
> whoo whoo!
>
> joe,
> manhattan,ny
>
> --
> do not quote other peoples' entire messages when replying to the list.
> indigo girls faq and indigo girls mailing list faq:
> http://www.pixelopolis.com/ig
>


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=========================================================================
date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 16:42:34 -0500
reply-to:     seldom naughty <seldomnaughty@hotmail.com>
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         seldom naughty <seldomnaughty@hotmail.com>
subject:      nigc: something for the kids
mime-version: 1.0
content-type: text/plain; format=flowed


hey ya'll!


for those who do not want to debate the cruise for the next year, here's
something to keep you occupied in the meantime!


http://www.kicken.com/funnyfiles/wackojacko.swf


have a politically-correct, eco-friendly, non-separatist, non-speciest,
non-flaming, non-homophobic, non-racist, non-offensive, all debates/opinions
welcomed, embraced, and eagerly anticipated, oh goddess (or whatever deity
you choose or choose not to worship -- it's all okay by me) i love everyone,
and don't forget the poor, (add in one chorus of kum bi ya), happy new year!


have a good 2003, folks!


peace,
shell >^,,^<


_________________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 16:51:35 -0500
reply-to:     kz1231@netscape.net
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         kristen curry <kz1231@netscape.net>
subject:      re: cruise discussions
x-to:         indigokare@aol.com
mime-version: 1.0
content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
content-transfer-encoding: 8bit


hi there,


some time ago, three years or so, i was quite active on this list, read it religiously, loved the camaradarie.  i lost interest because there seemed to be endless reviews of concerts along the lines of "amy's in the black tank and the girls were great" or "amy was in the black tank and the girls looked tired, but they were great, and they did the woodsong". and that's it. i'm a huge fan. i'm a huge fan of the black tank, but really, i've seen the tank, you know.


i am pleasantly surprised to see a meaningful subject - how to be queer on a cruise ship - ok. let's say, how to be queer in the world... how to be a lesbian in the wide world. how all of that fits in with the rest of the world - i'm really pleased to see that conversation happening. it means something. i got tired of the list because the discussions that meant anything seemed to be excused from the list.


this is very igc. and it's important to women, lesbians, and obviously some of the men on the list. so why can't that kind of conversation, polite, respectful and hopefully eye-opening, continue. if you don't want to read it, thread the discussion. doesn't seem that difficult to avoid.


i'm looking forward to seeing other members of the list in this discussion.
be well all, and happy holidays.
kc

"karen r." <indigokare@aol.com> wrote:


>in a message dated 12/20/2002 9:30:43 pm pacific standard time,
>creechal@spamcop.net writes:
>
>
>> i for one have been enjoying this non-flame discourse on social issues
>> directly
>> relating to the indigo girls, but if jen says so, we must stop discussing
>> anything more serious than what they wore at the last concert and which
>> songs
>> they didn't play and how hard it was to get good seats....
>
>me too!  this discussion remindes me of the days when this list was very
>active!
>
>:-) karen
>*****
>"they're sending soldiers to distant places, xs and os on someone's drawing
>board
>like green and plastic, but with human faces, and they want to tell you it's
>a merciful
>sword; but with all the blood newly dried in the deserts, can we not
>fertilize the land with something else?  there is no nation, by god exempted,
>lay down your weapons
>and love your neighbor as yourself..."
>  ~~ emily saliers, indigo girls
>
>"now i'm running to the end of the earth, and i'm swimming to the edge of the
>sea, and i'm laughing, i'm under a starry sky, this world was meant for me,
>don't bury me, carry me"
> ~~ amy ray, indigo girls
>
>--
>for information about the news-only version of this list send
>this command to majordomo@smoe.org: info ig-news
>indigo girls faq and indigo girls mailing list faq:
>http://www.pixelopolis.com/ig
>


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=========================================================================
date:         sat, 21 dec 2002 19:00:36 -0500
reply-to:     tisara@webworqs.com
sender:       indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from:         "i am 32 flavors and then some..." <tisara@webworqs.com>
subject:      the cruise...
mime-version: 1.0
content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
content-transfer-encoding:  7bit


hey all!


i'm glad this discussion is going on, and i just had something to
add.  in the beginning, it was just a mention of the girls performing
on the cruise just like if they were performing in new yourk or
boston or san fran or atlanta.  what it quickly blew up into is some
sort of inane finger pointing and how being supportive of olivia or
*gasp* heaven forbid going on the cruise makes you a bad person
because either you a) are going at all, b) support the idea of a
lesbian cruise ship even though it excludes men, or c) support
cruises at all because they are evil when it comes to all the really
poverty stricken people all around the world.


here's my take:


a)  i didn't think i would ever be able to go on something like this,
and now that i can i'm pretty damned happy that i have reached a
state of maturity and self-discipline where i *can* make this happen
for me.  that's all there is.


b)  dude, how many zillions of other shows do the girls have that you
can go to.  it's one freaking show - what makes this different than
one that they have across the country that you can't get to?  and are
they bad for having one far enough away that you can't get to?  the
problem is not that the girls are having a show on a cruise boat -
it's that it's women only.  well suck it up and deal - women have
been and are still excluded from things, and it's nice to have
something that we can call our own.  you will be no worse for the
wear not having seen them that week.  there will be another show.


c)  oh good lord.  i hate when people get on a soapbox about how
we're destroying the world and all the little people in it because we
decided to do something fun for ourselves.  i am taking a vacation,
not trying to send the world to hell.  yes it sucks that there is
poverty, but i don't think that someone looking to have some fun
should be looked at like they are the devil's spawn because of it.
shit happens, for real, to everyone - not just the poor people in the
caribbean.  you do what you can, sure - but don't hurt people along
the way because they aren't doing what you think is right.


anyways...i am looking forward to it (well it is in 1.5 years, so i
have a lot of looking to do) and i think it will be kickass to see
the girls in a venue i never dreamed i could.  i'm really hoping that
the show is on one of the days we're at sea...and that i can see some
stars and that they sing language or the kiss while i can stare up at
the sky...


"when we last talked we were lying on our backs/looking up at the
sky/through the ceiling/i used to lie like that alone out on the
driveway/trying to read the greek upon the stars/the alphabet of
feeling/oh i knew back then it was a calling/that said if joy then
pain the sound of the voice/these years later is still the same/i am
alone in a hotel room tonight/i squeeze the sky out but there's not a
star appears"

peace out,
audra

"when i say 'i will be true to you' i am drawing a quiet space
beyond the reach of other desires.  no-one can legislate love;
it cannot be given orders or cajoled into service.  love belongs
to itself, deaf to pleading and unmoved by violence.  love is
not something you can negotiate.  love is the one thing stronger
than desire and the only proper reason to resist temptation."
         -- jeanette winterson, _written on the body_ (p. 77-78)


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