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date: tue, 29 jul 2003 03:55:35 -0700
reply-to: shelley o'bar <indieshell@yahoo.com>
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from: shelley o'bar <indieshell@yahoo.com>
subject: re: nigc first gay high school
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first in new york.....not first ever: http://www.waltwhitmanschool.org/
madonajk <madonajk@alpha.delta.edu> wrote:http://www.msnbc.com/news/945134.asp?0cv=cb10
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date: tue, 29 jul 2003 07:37:36 -0400
reply-to: anna creech <creechal@spamcop.net>
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from: anna creech <creechal@spamcop.net>
subject: re: nigc first gay high school
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why is this making me think of segregated schools? is it better to separate the
queer kids from the straight kids "for their own safety"? why not change the
existing schools and make them safe spaces for everyone? separate but equal
never changed the world for the better.
anna
"i'm of a fearsome mind to throw my arms around every living librarian who
crosses my path, on behalf of the souls they never knew they saved."
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http://www.eclecticlibrarian.net | good music found here: mp3.com/wishingchair
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date: tue, 29 jul 2003 09:31:01 -0400
reply-to: victoria.heckler@ppfa.org
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from: "<victoria heckler>" <victoria.heckler@ppfa.org>
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actually, the harvey milk school began in 1984, almost 15 years before the
walt whitman school (which is not an accredited public high school) began.
but the harvey milk school is the first one in the nation to be pubically
funded and accredited. that's why this is such a big deal.
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date: tue, 29 jul 2003 08:48:08 -0500
reply-to: "kovacs, mirinda" <mirinda.kovacs@thomson.com>
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from: "kovacs, mirinda" <mirinda.kovacs@thomson.com>
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i have to agree with anna,
why are we letting our children get away with this? so, if i don't like a
gay kid i can just say "i don't need to learn to accept you as an equal
human being, you should just go to your own school."?
i can see it from both sides. i definitely understand the desire to go to
school and not be ridiculed by your peers. but come on, everyone has
differences. i got picked on because i wore glasses. my friend wore braces
and people made fun of her. i have blue eyes, she has green, he has brown.
we are all different, should we then be segregated?
i don't know, i just always thought that one of the main goals of the gay
community (well really of any minority group) was to be accepted by all. i
don't see how separating yourself can equal acceptance.
just my two cents. i would love to hear contradictory opinions though.
-mi rinda
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date: tue, 29 jul 2003 08:49:30 -0500
reply-to: andrea crain <acrain@idea-inc.com>
sender: indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from: andrea crain <acrain@idea-inc.com>
subject: re: nigc first gay high school
in-reply-to: <7948498dae2ed51196090003473a78380a77743b@eg-msgmbx-b09.int.westgroup.com>
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well, it will certainly be a lot easier for the gay kids to find dates
there, won't it? heh...
i think there's a difference between this and racial segregation, since
it's not like gay kids will be forced to go to this other school if they
don't want to. i can see your point, but i also think it'd be a great
opportunity for gay kids who don't feel like dealing with getting beaten
up anymore, or can't take it. there's the social ideal, which would be
safe schools for everyone, which will take some time. and then there's the
personal reality, which is that a gay high school will be a lot more
comfortable for some kids right now.
it's more like the gay sections of cities than the segregated schools of
the past. should all the glbt people move out of san francisco and new
york and toronto and provincetown and back to their little towns of origin
to fight for equality? they like living among "family".
-andrea
on tue, 29 jul 2003, kovacs, mirinda wrote:
> i have to agree with anna,
> why are we letting our children get away with this? so, if i don't like a
> gay kid i can just say "i don't need to learn to accept you as an equal
> human being, you should just go to your own school."?
> i can see it from both sides. i definitely understand the desire to go to
> school and not be ridiculed by your peers. but come on, everyone has
> differences. i got picked on because i wore glasses. my friend wore braces
> and people made fun of her. i have blue eyes, she has green, he has brown.
> we are all different, should we then be segregated?
> i don't know, i just always thought that one of the main goals of the gay
> community (well really of any minority group) was to be accepted by all. i
> don't see how separating yourself can equal acceptance.
> just my two cents. i would love to hear contradictory opinions though.
> -mi rinda
>
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date: tue, 29 jul 2003 09:07:58 -0500
reply-to: wieldingwords@cox.net
sender: indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from: michelle leifur <wieldingwords@cox.net>
subject: re: nigc first gay high school
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on 29 jul 2003 at 8:48, kovacs, mirinda wrote:
> i have to agree with anna,
> why are we letting our children get away with this? so, if i don't like a
> gay kid i can just say "i don't need to learn to accept you as an equal
> human being, you should just go to your own school."?
> i can see it from both sides.
yes; i see both sides. it saddens me that we live in a society where
we feel we need to offer a school for glbt youth so that they can
be safe. i hope that this school isn't the "answer" for dealing with
the homophobic rage in our public school systems. "if you don't
want to be ridiculed or beaten up you can always attend the 'gay
school'"
we need to educate our children about acceptance (rather than
tolerance, but if all i can get is tolerance from someone i will take
that over ignorance.) diversity studies needs to be expanded
outward from race and religion to include sexual orientation and
gender.
i think offering a safe haven (a non-mandatory safe haven) is a
good thing, but at the same time change needs to be made so that
the safe haven is a temporary place. the hardest part of this is
getting children to accept the things that they have been raised by
their parents to hate. so in a way we really need to educate
*everyone* and work on universal acceptance, not just in our
schools.
michelle
"dancing at the edge of my growing"
-emily melcher
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date: tue, 29 jul 2003 09:07:21 -0500
reply-to: amy l clements <amyloretta@juno.com>
sender: indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from: amy l clements <amyloretta@juno.com>
subject: re: nigc first gay high school
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i don't think people should be looking at the notion of a gay high school
as exclusionary, but rather inclusionary of people who may have felt
dogged by the current system. as for the harvey mlk school, i know that
they woud cater to youth from around the nation who left home, kicked
out, as well as a nyc youth - it's just an option, and i think it's a
healthy one if people feel that's what best for them...
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date: tue, 29 jul 2003 10:47:50 -0500
reply-to: "kovacs, mirinda" <mirinda.kovacs@thomson.com>
sender: indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from: "kovacs, mirinda" <mirinda.kovacs@thomson.com>
subject: re: nigc first gay high school
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this is why i love this list! people on here are so smart and they state
their opinions in such an intelligent and non-offensive manner. i am on
some other lists where all they do is insult each other. it is so nice to
see that people can have different opinions without attacking. i like it
because i can never know too much about how other people think and feel.
i just wanted to say that ig fans are the best ever!
:)
mi rinda
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date: tue, 29 jul 2003 11:55:55 -0400
reply-to: michael reynolds <mike@uppity-disability.net>
sender: indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from: michael reynolds <mike@uppity-disability.net>
subject: re: nigc first gay high school
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as a disabled and gay (i think i had a good idea in high school i was bi,
but wasnt ready to admit it, tho i got teased for supposedly dating my best
friend, who was the only other mainstreamed disabled guy in my grade)
i see both sides of this argument uniquely; disabled people are fighting
like hell, to get the same access to everything a non disabled person does.
special education has meant separate classes, separate schools, horrid
educations, and not getting people ready for real life. after special ed,
most cognitively impared folks go into group homes (think the special ed
class but in the community) it sucks because people can be active members
of their community.
as for towns like noho - thank god they are there - living in a homophobic
town in maine - it was wonderful to go to the pride store and get a queer
anniversary card. we held hands without fear. we got some good gay books.
there isnt really the same thing in the dis rights community (okay, maybe
berkeley, ca,) which is funny, because where i live is a block from bates
college, and bates is a having a dance festival with intregrated dancing
(wheelchairs, disabled folks, regular dances all as one) bates is so
vanilla and so not disability culture during the year, i remarked to the
head of axis, that she came to visit me, cus dammit - there wasn't enough
culture in maine. what is also wierd is that she knows most of the same
folks i do - and she lives in the sf/ berkeley area...
i dunno - a disabled only school for kids who wantewd to excell, get into a
ivy type college, get pushed in academics and such would have been great -
but there arent really disabled only malls or churches afterwards.
mike r.
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date: tue, 29 jul 2003 10:29:16 -0700
reply-to: susan burk <susan@rocketstop.com>
sender: indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from: susan burk <susan@rocketstop.com>
subject: re: nigc first gay high school
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i was teased for having buck teeth until i got braces. but i literally lived in fear that i would be killed if anyone found out i was gay. while i can see the argument on both sides, i probably would've given just about anything to go to a high school where i didn't feel like a freak living in fear. <br>
<br>
>><font size=2><font face="courier new">but come on, everyone has </font></font><font size=2><font face="courier new">differences.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>i got picked on because i wore glasses.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></font></font><br>
<font size=2><font face="courier new"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes">>></span>my friend wore braces </font></font><font size=2><font face="courier new">and people made fun of her.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>i have blue eyes, she has green, </font></font><br>
<font size=2><font face="courier new">>>he has brown. </font></font><font size=2><font face="courier new">we are all different, should we then be segregated?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></font></font><br>
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date: tue, 29 jul 2003 13:07:42 -0500
reply-to: jon miner <jon@jjminer.org>
sender: indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from: jon miner <jon@jjminer.org>
subject: re: nigc first gay high school
x-to: anna creech <creechal@spamcop.net>
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creechal@spamcop.net on tue, jul 29, 2003 at 07:37:36am -0400
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that's immediately what came to my mind. i read it on the ap wire and
said "didn't we learn anything from brown v board?"
my other question was regarding the name of the school: harvey milk was
a san fran city council member, and had nothing to do with nyc.
stonewall happened in greenwitch village. why not call the school
stonewall memorial or something?
jon
* anna creech (creechal@spamcop.net) [030729 06:37]:
> why is this making me think of segregated schools? is it better to separate the
> queer kids from the straight kids "for their own safety"? why not change the
> existing schools and make them safe spaces for everyone? separate but equal
> never changed the world for the better.
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date: tue, 29 jul 2003 13:03:16 -0500
reply-to: andrea crain <acrain@idea-inc.com>
sender: indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from: andrea crain <acrain@idea-inc.com>
subject: re: nigc first gay high school
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well, lincoln wasn't from new jersey, and yet that was the name of my
elementary school. i don't think there's a problem.
on tue, 29 jul 2003, jon miner wrote:
> that's immediately what came to my mind. i read it on the ap wire and
> said "didn't we learn anything from brown v board?"
>
> my other question was regarding the name of the school: harvey milk was
> a san fran city council member, and had nothing to do with nyc.
> stonewall happened in greenwitch village. why not call the school
> stonewall memorial or something?
>
> jon
>
> * anna creech (creechal@spamcop.net) [030729 06:37]:
> > why is this making me think of segregated schools? is it better to separate the
> > queer kids from the straight kids "for their own safety"? why not change the
> > existing schools and make them safe spaces for everyone? separate but equal
> > never changed the world for the better.
>
> --
> .jonathan j. miner------------------division of information technology.
> |miner@doit.wisc.edu university of wisconsin - madison|
> |608/262.9655 room 3146 computer science|
> '---------------------------------------------------------------------'
>
> a careless overtake may be your undertake.
> a warning from the jamaican national road safety council
> (700/700)
>
> --
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date: tue, 29 jul 2003 14:40:13 -0400
reply-to: lee <grrlee@sympatico.ca>
sender: indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from: lee <grrlee@sympatico.ca>
subject: re: nigc first gay high school
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having worked with a few kids in a queer youth group who went into toronto's
lgbt high school, i came to look at it as more of an incubator for young gay
kids who needed time to be with others like them before moving into the
larger sphere of the school community. all of us are at different stages at
different times in our lives and need different situations to accommodate
our growth in our personal identities. what might be appropriate for one
teenager (a mainstream high school, for example) may not be rewarding to
another. having the choice to submerge oneself in a community of other
queer youth might provide a much needed time of growth or comfort for a
young person coming out and so on. it's not unlike the choice, in my
opinion, to live or not live in a queer village in a city where that's a
possibility. i moved straight (no joke intended here) into the queer village
in seattle as soon as i came out, but when i moved to toronto, i didn't feel
like i needed to be so close to the "village" to be comfortable. it doesn't
make me somehow more mature, just simply in a different phase of life.
just my piece, lee
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date: tue, 29 jul 2003 15:12:20 -0500
reply-to: amy l clements <amyloretta@juno.com>
sender: indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from: amy l clements <amyloretta@juno.com>
subject: re: nigc first gay high school
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and you probably wouldn't want to name a school after a bar
; )
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date: wed, 30 jul 2003 12:00:51 -0400
reply-to: karrie <karrie@cableracer.com>
sender: indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from: karrie <karrie@cableracer.com>
subject: tickets for sale
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i have two ig tickets for sale for aug 8 at chautauqua institution near
jamestown ny. (about an hour south of buffalo, 2 hours from pittburgh,
and 2 hours from cleveland.)
$80.00 for both, they go to the first person who mails me at
karrie@cableracer.com
i might even give preference to some of my ohio list commrades (hi don
and peg!)
karrie
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date: wed, 30 jul 2003 11:24:23 -0500
reply-to: tgreen@uab.edu
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from: todd green <tgreen@uab.edu>
subject: anyone have 2 good seats for the gwinnett show?
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my wife and i are looking for 2 good seats to the gwinnett show. if you h=
ave 2=20
extras send me an email.=20
thanks in advance - todd
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date: wed, 30 jul 2003 12:58:10 -0700
reply-to: marysnshne <marysnshne@yahoo.com>
sender: indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from: marysnshne <marysnshne@yahoo.com>
subject: re: nigc first gay high school
x-to: lee <grrlee@sympatico.ca>
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--- lee <grrlee@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> having worked with a few kids in a queer youth group
> who went into toronto's
> lgbt high school, i came to look at it as more of an
> incubator for young gay
> kids who needed time to be with others like them
> before moving into the
> larger sphere of the school community. all of us
> are at different stages at
> different times in our lives and need different
> situations to accommodate
> our growth in our personal identities. what might
> be appropriate for one
> teenager (a mainstream high school, for example) may
> not be rewarding to
> another. having the choice to submerge oneself in a
> community of other
> queer youth might provide a much needed time of
> growth or comfort for a
> young person coming out and so on. it's not unlike
> the choice, in my
> opinion, to live or not live in a queer village in a
> city where that's a
> possibility. i moved straight (no joke intended
> here) into the queer village
> in seattle as soon as i came out, but when i moved
> to toronto, i didn't feel
> like i needed to be so close to the "village" to be
> comfortable. it doesn't
> make me somehow more mature, just simply in a
> different phase of life.
> just my piece, lee
excellent. very well said. i totally agree with you -
"incubator" period for growth to take place is a great
descriptor for such a school and your post really
speaks to the individual needs of youth that such a
school provides. really sums it all up nicely, in my
opinion. sorry for reposting your whole post, but it
was so good i didn't know where to cut, so i left the
whole thing intact.
i can't understand where the post below is coming from
- who is proposing "segregation"? and it sounds like
you are concluding that the presence of a glbt only
school threatens the status of diversity and
tolerance? so, i'm reading into your post as an "all
or nothing" type of thing - it sounds like you are
saying "no separate schools should exist. if they do,
that equals segretion. i don't know if i am correct
in my analysis of your thoughts - i apologize if i
have it wrong. why do you think separate
spaces/schools means "separate but equal"? (really -
i'm not personally attacking or asking the writer of
the post, so don't feel like you need to respond, but
rather i was just asking the question to "you" in
general). shouldn't people have choices? if one
feels so distraught and bad about him or her self in
one place, why should they be made to stay there? why
not create alternative spaces for those who really
feel the need for a safe, different space? until of
course, they feel they can cope in certain situations
. . . of course diversity and tolerance should
continue to be taught regardless of whether or not
there are separate spaces for personal growth and
personal emotional and physical safety.
> why is this making me think of segregated schools?
is it better to
separate the
> queer kids from the straight kids "for their own
safety"? why not
change the
> existing schools and make them safe spaces for
everyone?
who is saying not to keep on trying to change the
existing schools? continued efforts of course should
be made to do this.
> separate but equal
> never changed the world for the better.
no, it never did. my take is that "separate but
equal" is not what is being proposed. separate safe
space which is temporary, i might add, is a far cry
from the "segregation" and "separate but equal"
concepts and policies that historically were tragic
and horrific events.
elaine
=====
i like my t.v. loud, my beer cold, and my
homosexuals flaming
~ homer simpson
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=========================================================================
date: wed, 30 jul 2003 17:16:36 -0400
reply-to: jennifer <jencattin@comcast.net>
sender: indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from: jennifer <jencattin@comcast.net>
subject: tix for hyannis for sale
x-to: baigls <baigls@world.std.com>
mime-version: 1.0
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howdy ho folks!
i just happen to have 2 (that's right two!) extra tickets for the girls =
show in hyannis. according to the melody tent website this show is sold =
out! the seats are in section h row 5 seats 3 & 4. with the extra =
fees that i paid for them ($59 a ticket though face value is $48) i'm =
asking $60 per ticket. no profit for me, well ok 2 bucks... just want =
to share the opportunity. anyone interested? an added bonus...you get =
to sit next to me!
peace,
jen
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date: thu, 31 jul 2003 08:29:13 -0400
reply-to: jennifer <jencattin@comcast.net>
sender: indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from: jennifer <jencattin@comcast.net>
subject: nigc something to do this weekend
x-to: baigls <baigls@world.std.com>
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morning y'all!
if anyone is looking for something different to do this weekend, come to =
north conway to the saco river pow wow. our drum, red bear thunder, is =
host drum. come say hi!
jen
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date: thu, 31 jul 2003 12:54:14 -0400
reply-to: ndgowomyn@aol.com
sender: indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from: ndgowomyn@aol.com
subject: nigc--melissa ferrick is sooo awesome!!!
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date: thu, 31 jul 2003 21:03:05 -0400
reply-to: anna creech <creechal@spamcop.net>
sender: indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from: anna creech <creechal@spamcop.net>
subject: re: nigc first gay high school
in-reply-to: <20030730195810.26937.qmail@web41706.mail.yahoo.com>
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elain asked a lot of good questions in response to my post, so i thought i
should respond to her by elaborating more on my questions.
i think separate spaces are good and necessary things, but i worry that having
separate schools for gay kids will make it harder for those who choose to stay
in the regular schools, or that the gay kids will be "forced" to attend
separate schools whether they want to or not. whenever i hear of something
like this happening, i tend to jump to a dystopian future of the worst
possible outcome. that is why i question the almost blind assumption that a
separate gay school is a good thing.
i didn't have much diversity and tolorance and acceptance taught in my mostly
white schools. there wasn't a goverment enforced segregation, but due to
geography, most of the kids in my schools were white. since almost everyone
was white, we didn't have to think about things like diversity and tolorance,
at least not along racial lines. if there isn't an innate diversity then most
of the time we do not put the effort into learning how to live with and
appreciate those who are different from us.
anna
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date: thu, 31 jul 2003 22:28:08 -0400
reply-to: karrie <karrie@cableracer.com>
sender: indigo girls mailing list <indigo-girls@lists.netspace.org>
from: karrie <karrie@cableracer.com>
subject: reposting- tickets for sale!!
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i have 2 tickets for the ig at chautauqua institution, near jamestown,
ny, next friday, august 8th that i need to get rid of.
$80.00 for both, including 2 day mailing them to whomever responds to my
email address first!
so all you ny, pa, oh, canadian fans! email me and scoop them up!
:-)
karrie
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